Poor logic. Just because the mass media misinterpreted what he said and he didin't correct them does not de facto mean he endorses their interpretation. Read it in context, not how you want to, but I recommend looking up the article "Does Pope Francis support gay civil unions? No, no, no" on the very secular and liberal "Slate" where they discuss how badly the media has taken his comments out of context. Pope Francis supports Catholic teaching on marriage and even today came out in defense of it.Really? Well, let's take a look here. He made some pandering comments to the LGBT community and got put on the cover of several gay magazines. Never did he come out and seek to explain his comments, put context to them, or tell us that he is opposed to their lifestyles. So, making a seemingly pro-LGBT comment and then allowing your image as a patriarch to be put all over homosexual magazines and all over the internet unchallenged as pro-gay, well, makes you seem a touch pro-gay, no? In Argentina he also supported same-sex civil unions. Simple math, Columba.
Anti- what kind of capitalism? There are a lot of different types. Further, there have been a lot of Orthodox elders who have criticized capitalism as well.Then I said he is anti-capitalist. Have you read what he has said about capitalism? You might want to take the time to read it. He has said anti-capitalist sentiments right and left.
So, what I said was neither uncharitable or inaccurate.
Believe what you want to believe. I can't fight invincible ignorance.
Would the Catholics need to change to leavened bread if reunion occurred? They were using it since before the schism.
And then Pope Francis entered the cathedral. He re-enacted the horrible scene in 1054 storming into Hagia Sophia. He slammed down a scroll. Patriarch Bartholomew, in shock, grabbed the paper and read it...And it said the following
I, Pope Francis, admit to the Catholic Church's crimes of the past 1,000 years of the Donation of Constantine forgery, of claiming to be infallible when we all know that's horse manure, of inventing crazy stuff like indulgences, of pretending to rule the entire roost instead of just my turf, of allowing a distorted, liberal, scary, modernistic mess of a liturgy to come into existence. I repent of my crimes and ask to be restored to Holy Orthodoxy! I promise forthwith to forbid clown Masses, liturgical ballet dancers, rainbow vestments, strumming guitars and vile Mexican-style mariachi music during Mass, drop the cardboard-tasting wafers as communion, allow my priests to marry and lead normal lives, heck, I'll even encourage my priests and bishops to grow beards! I swear my bishops and cardinals will be trained in how to light up an incense censor. We'll drop the girly-girl altar "boys," we'll lengthen the mass to 2 hours, we'll get the sacred art back in our churches, we'll hire SSPX priests to be in charge, we'll get rid of the court-jester-looking Papal guards at the Vatican. We'll learn some Greek and Russian. We'll renounce our Protestant pews and sitting during liturgy. We'll change! We'll repent! Please let us back!
Not to mention the fact that each one of these popes has this annoying penchant for taking on a cause. By that I mean that Pope John Paul II had the cause of going all over kingdom come with ecumenical hugging sessions and trying to build relations with other churches and even NON-Christian groups (sigh). He felt he had to traverse the globe and build bridges. Amid all that, the liturgy got ten times uglier, the strumming guitars and hand-holding and ballet liturgy dancers and rainbow vestments grew exponentially. He was very pro-life and opposed to the gay agenda, very pro traditional morality, but his ecumenism was spooky!
Then enter Benedict XVI. He wisely knows that the Novus Ordo liturgy is a disgraceful disaster, so he tries to reform it. He works on revamping the language to it and tightening up some of the gestures and priestly actions. He tries his best. He also tries to encourage the return of the Latin Mass, despite the fact that it failed dismally thanks to the fact that most of these Catholic priests have grown up in the wake of the worst disaster in Catholic history--Vatican II, that stopped stressing liturgical piety and Latin, etc.
Then enter Pope Francis, a liberal's ultimate dream. He could care less about liturgical reform of Benedict and he could care less about the moral toughness of John Paul II. He's cozying up to the LGBTers, blasts capitalism, sticks foot in mouth, and has the ugly ecumenical stuff JP2 liked. Worst of all worlds imho.
And all that within the last twenty years!
Like I said, if reunion were to take place, and it won't, there is only one outcome that could be accepted---total, utter, unequivocal, absolute conversion of the West to Holy Orthodoxy dropping the papal innovations, dropping purgatory and indulgences, dropping the horrendous liturgy, dumping the filioque, and hopefully returning the Eucharist from the cardboard-tasting mass-produced discs to the Bread of Christ, the prosfora, in short---revamping the entire mess of the West into something resembling the Church again!
The only thing I think Orthodoxy can truly learn from Catholicism is how to run charities. Honestly Catholic Charities are first-rate, incredible, awesome in how they minister to the poor and disenfranchised. We could also benefit from their pro-life zeal.
So, my proposal is that we control their polity, liturgy, and theology, they run the charities and pro-life stuff! Done!
At the defense of the EP, he's trying to placate the European and international community in order to use some leverage on Turkey. The problem is that 1) it is simply not the case and +Bartholomew knows it and 2) the EU could actually recognize him as a "pope of the east" out of sheer ignorance.Let's hope nothing happens. If +Patriarch Bartholomew continues with this, he may find himself very isolated because the other patriarchates will not go along with him on this (thank God). He is not the Pope of the East as a lot of the media likes to call him. Unfortunately, I have yet to see him correct them and explain that there is no supreme pontiff in the Orthodox Church. He has no more power than any of the other patriarchs.
It was Patriarch Bartholomew who broke the news: On his return from Jerusalem, where the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople had prayed with Pope Francis at the Holy Sepulchre, the Patriarch revealed plans for a Catholic-Orthodox get-together in Nicaea in 2025.
What seems bizarre to me when I read the Early Church is that the modern Pope of Rome is so determinant and could have such influence on the direccion of the Church. Are Roman Catholics comfortable that the immutable faith passed on to the Apostles is so easily reshaped based on who occupies the Roman See?
I don't know what flaming is, but the moderators said I was. I will remember that in the future that you can say "this argument displays invincible ignorance" but you can't say "this author displays invincible ignorance."Are you flaming me?
I don't know what flaming is, but the moderators said I was. I will remember that in the future that you can say "this argument displays invincible ignorance" but you can't say "this author displays invincible ignorance."
Feel free to call me whatever you want. I would find it no more offensive than some of the non-flaming things people say in this forum.Calling me ignorant is flaming. Keep in mind that I would NEVER call you ignorant or imply that you're so ignorant and foolish that you're invincibly ignorant...that would NEVER happen in a disagreement with me, Columba. It's unfortunate that you needed to resort to that when we could just continue the discussion and not make things personal. It's especially odd for an Orthodox Christian to say such a thing to another Orthodox. I would never do that....period.
Feel free to call me whatever you want. I would find it no more offensive than some of the non-flaming things people say in this forum.
As for my part, forgive me. I will make sure to only criticize the arguments of individuals in the future.
Continuing the discussion, my other criticisms still stand. I think you are being unfair to Pope Francis. I don't think everything you have said is wrong, but I especially take issue with your claim that he endorses the LGBT community. Many of our own clergy and elders speak in an irenic matter regarding the LGBT community even though they see homosexuality as sinful. It might be better to say he hasn't spoken out against homosexuality as strongly as you would like?
The Vatican has declined to confirm that Pope Francis and Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople have agreed to hold an ecumenical meeting at Nicea in 2025.
In an interview last week with the AsiaNews service, the Ecumenical Patriarch revealed the plans for a gathering at the Turkish city that hosted “the first truly ecumenical synod, where the Creed was first promulgated.” The meeting would mark the 1700th anniversary of the Council of Nicea.
However, Father Thomas Rosica, a spokesman for the Vatican press office, cautioned: “No formal announcement of or convocation of this event has come from the Vatican.” While he did not contradict the statement by Patriarch Bartholomew, he added that it is “very early to jump to conclusions.”
In a related development, however, the Vatican Insider disclosed that Patriarch Bartholomew would join the Pope and his guests, Israel’s President Shimon Peres and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, in a June 8 meeting at the Vatican to pray for peace. Neither the Vatican nor the Patriarchate of Constantinople has confirmed that report.
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