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Pope Benedict XVI set to remove SSPX Excommunications via decree within a few days.

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Virgil the Roman

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UPDATE
(2248 GMT). Italian religious journalist Andrea Tornielli has just confirmed in his blog the increasing reports: the Pope has already signed the withdrawal of excommunications, and his act will be made public in the next few days.


Tornielli's post:

The decree in which Benedict XVI decided to cancel the excommunication of the four new Bishops consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre in 1988 will be made public in the next few days. Now, other than the four (Bernard Fellay, Alfonso de Gallareta [sic - Galarreta], [Bernard] Tissier de Mallerais, and Richard Williamson), Lefebvre himself and the Brazilian Bishop [Antonio] de Castro Mayer who participateed at the ceremony, had been excommunicated.



In that occasion, after having been near reconciling with the Holy See (and after having dealt with then-Cardinal Ratzinger and having signed a protocol of intentions), Archbishop Lefebvre abruptly decided for the rupture and, by consecrating four of his young priests Bishops, accomplished a schismatic act [sic], justified by him due to the necessity of allowing his Fraternity of Saint Pius X to survive. Now, with a truly magnanimous gesture, receiving the request proposed by Fellay, Benedict XVI has decided to remove the excommunication. An excommunication which, it should be noticed, has always and exclusively applied only to the consecrating Bishops (Lefebvre and de Castro Mayer, both deceased for a long time) and the four consecrated Bishops, but not the Lefebvrist [sic] priests or the faithful.
I found out about this via Fisheaters. If this is true, rather than rumour (which I hope and pray that it is true!:crossrc:), then: Glory be to God in the Highest; Gloria in Exclesis Deo: for healing this!!
:prayer: I'll be praying for the Pope, the Holy Catholic Church, and Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X. :crossrc:
 

Virgil the Roman

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Of note though: the FSSPX priests and the four SSPX bishops will for the time being, though, be suspened "A Divinis."
 
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Fish and Bread

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It's hard to believe that this thread doesn't have more posts in it! This is huge news. Hopefully, it'll go a long way toward healing the rift between the mainstream Church and the SSPX.

I'll admit, I don't always understand why excommunications would be lifted before something substantive has changed in this case. What's the difference between 1998 and 2008 in terms of the SSPX's attitude towards the authority of Rome? It almost seems like a different of opinion between Pope John-Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, except that Benedict was the point man for relations with SSPX when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, working under JPII. So, his close work through the years on this issue would seem to indicate to me that he perceives a change of some sort, at least in the overall circumstances, if perhaps not specifically on the parts of the SSPX bishops themselves.

What do you all make of this? What do you think Benedict seeing that prompted this?
 
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Fish and Bread

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Of course, Bishop Williams going on another one of his conspiracy theory rants, this time denying the Holocaust, isn't going to help. It also may land him in prison for the next seven years, because he did it in Germany, where it's a crime. He has similar "theories" about 9-11 and other things.

With respect to him as a person who may be honestly deluded, he's a very good case for why it's important to have good procedures and criteria for selecting bishops, an approval process, and so on and so forth. He was a very recent convert to Catholicism, who was then made a priest very quickly, and then was made a bishop very quickly after that -- something that would not have likely happened in the mainstream Church. But because all this happened in SSPX, there wasn't oversight in place in the same way, and so on and so forth. He also makes me suspect that the SSPX doesn't do psychological testing (Though I do not know if that is the case of or not).

That is one of the practical reasons that union with Rome is important, in addition to the theological reasons -- quality control of clergy. In a sect, you just don't know what you're getting and what their review processes and so forth are. The problem is even more pronounced with the sedavacionists than in the SSPX. Granted, some people slip through the cracks in the mainstream Church, too, but I can only really think of one living bishop this far off the wall in the mainstream Church (and he is not bishop in good standing) -- out of many, many more total bishops.
 
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Fantine

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Because I believe that a universal Church can accommodate great diversity, I am pleased they will be Catholics once again....

But that doesn't mean I plan on going to their services anytime soon :)
 
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Virgil the Roman

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Of course, Bishop Williams going on another one of his conspiracy theory rants, this time denying the Holocaust, isn't going to help. It also may land him in prison for the next seven years, because he did it in Germany, where it's a crime. He has similar "theories" about 9-11 and other things.

With respect to him as a person who may be honestly deluded, he's a very good case for why it's important to have good procedures and criteria for selecting bishops, an approval process, and so on and so forth. He was a very recent convert to Catholicism, who was then made a priest very quickly, and then was made a bishop very quickly after that -- something that would not have likely happened in the mainstream Church. But because all this happened in SSPX, there wasn't oversight in place in the same way, and so on and so forth. He also makes me suspect that the SSPX doesn't do psychological testing (Though I do not know if that is the case of or not).

That is one of the practical reasons that union with Rome is important, in addition to the theological reasons -- quality control of clergy. In a sect, you just don't know what you're getting and what their review processes and so forth are. The problem is even more pronounced with the sedavacionists than in the SSPX. Granted, some people slip through the cracks in the mainstream Church, too, but I can only really think of one living bishop this far off the wall in the mainstream Church (and he is not bishop in good standing) -- out of many, many more total bishops.
Please don't bring up Bishop Williamson's rants into this, okay?! I don't think he's a bad guy; my only problem with him are his views on the Holocaust. He just needs to keep his mouth his views on the the Holocaust shut, or it'll get him into more trouble. I honestly, do not know why he chooses to espouse those views; otherwise than that I've got no problem with him. I hope that the SSPX will discipline soon, or even after the Relations are normalized.
:prayer: Let us continue to pray for the FSSPX that the Excommunications are finally lifted and they're regularized. :crossrc:
 
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Virgil the Roman

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If they become regularized, I just might join their seminary; either theirs or if they're not regularized by the time I get my bachelor's degree, then I'll either go Opus Dei or FSSP.:crossrc:
 
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Fish and Bread

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Please don't bring up Bishop Williamson's rants into this, okay?! I don't think he's a bad guy; my only problem with him are his views on the Holocaust. He just needs to keep his mouth his views on the the Holocaust shut, or it'll get him into more trouble. I honestly, do not know why he chooses to espouse those views; otherwise than that I've got no problem with him. I hope that the SSPX will discipline soon, or even after the Relations are normalized.

The only reason I bring up Bishop Williamson is that I think what's going on with him may have an effect on how all this unfolds. To be fair, I'll admit that I probably got a little sidetracked in talking about his early years and screening procedures and such. Still, he could be a sticking point in this situation -- both because the Pope might hesitate to lift excommunications and move toward regularization given the impact that doing might have on Catholic-Jewish relations with Bp. Williamson making these sorts of comments, and because Bp. Williamson himself is said to be very resistant to the potential of regularization (moreso than the three other SSPX bishops).

Time will tell, I suppose. Certainly, I'd like to see the SSPX regularized, provided they fullly recognize the Pope's authority in practice and assent to Vatican II. The extraordinary form mass is a treasure of the Church and there is no question that this group, whatever it's faults, did do a lot to keep it alive through the years.
 
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Virgil the Roman

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The only reason I bring up Bishop Williamson is that I think what's going on with him may have an effect on how all this unfolds. To be fair, I'll admit that I probably got a little sidetracked in talking about his early years and screening procedures and such. Still, he could be a sticking point in this situation -- both because the Pope might hesitate to lift excommunications and move toward regularization given the impact that doing might have on Catholic-Jewish relations with Bp. Williamson making these sorts of comments, and because Bp. Williamson himself is said to be very resistant to the potential of regularization (moreso than the three other SSPX bishops).

Time will tell, I suppose. Certainly, I'd like to see the SSPX regularized, provided they fullly recognize the Pope's authority in practice and assent to Vatican II. The extraordinary form mass is a treasure of the Church and there is no question that this group, whatever it's faults, did do a lot to keep it alive through the years.
Don't worry Fish, I know full well the implications of this and it is as you so pointedly described. However, despite my disagreements with his Lordship, Bishop Williamson, his views on the Jews, does in a very indirect way, makes one think that whilst his views on the holocaust down play the scale of it (yes, I've watched his interview in Sweden), it reminds one that in Jewish-Catholic Dialogue the doctrinal expression and the way prayers are expressed in the Catholic liturgy should not be unduly influenced by the pro-Zionist lobby particularly those Jews in the United States, or even in Italy who attack the Pope or the Catholic Church in general for seeking authentic expression of Catholic belief and action [praying for the Jews' salvation and conversion to the Holy Catholic faith and for they not to languish in unbelief of the Messias,] in regards to Jews in general. A prime example of this would be the Good-Friday Prayers for the Conversion of the Jews, that even though the Previous Good Friday prayer [in the Missal of Blessed John XXIII]* was wholly Good Pope Benedict XVI then gave a revised version of the prayer (which didn't contain the word "perfidious;" it was then: still was inadequate for the Jews!! They would not have us pray for their conversion to the One True and Holy Catholic Faith! They didn't want us praying for their salvation: they want us to change our DOCTRINE so that we accept the Old Testament as being valid for their salvation (and that they could be saved outside of the pale of the One Holy Catholic Church); when simply that is not the case: Christ completed and fulfilled the Old Covenant and established the New Covenant: the New Testament. Given such, the Old Testament is no longer valid having been superseded by the Messias and the New Covenant of Christ Jesus. Hence, it is very much important for the Holy Mother Church to encourage friendly relations and peaceful dialogue between the Jews and the Holy Catholic Church, but never to make vague, ambiguous wishy-washy or even to permit heretical expressions or erroneous interpretations of Catholic doctrine or dogma for the comfort or sake of any non-Catholic sects, including the modern-day Jewish sects; it has sadly been such that has impaired true dialogue between Jews and Catholics and has not borne into fruition a proper dialogue yet, due to false catechitical and inter-religious statements that speak as if they Jewish Old Covenant were still valid or efficaious for the Jews' salvation; and neglects the full and absolute necessity of the Jews' accept and recoginition our Good Saviour Christ Jesus as the True Messias, God incarnate, and necessity of being apart of the Body of Christ: that is the Holy Mother Church for the sake of one's own soul's salvation.

*Nota Bene: Bl. John XXIII did remove the word "perfidious" which means "half-believing" in Latin, which did adequately describe only in the specific sense, that the Jews as [they] only half-believed the revelation of God in that, they only accept the Old Testament and reject the other half: that is the Messias Christ Jesus and the whole of the New Testament: the Sacraments and the Holy Catholic Church and the fullness of her truth completely; furthermore, once the prayer had this deleted: we prayed that God would lift the "veil" from their eyes so that they would convert to the True Holy Catholic faith. Mind you, the prayer is perfectly then reasonably and comes directly from scripture as Christ HIMSELF says that the Jews' eyes are "veiled." Veiled in this sense, means not willing to believe in or see the truth that Christ is the Son of the Living God: God incarnate, and the New Covenant and Catholic Church which he established for our salvation's sake; because they [the Jews] have "hardened their hearts" and [as scripture also says of them, that they..]have been "willfully blind."
 
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QuantaCura

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Williamson's views on the Holocaust are nothing new. Plus anyone who has read his writings or listened to his sermons knows he is one the more antagonistic and provacative of the bishops concerning a whole host of subjects and controversies, and especially in his criticisms of Rome.

If the Pope was willing to remove the excommunications before, I don't see how Williamson simply repeating himself is going to have that much of an impact. Sure, certain Jewish leaders and the media will be in a tizzy for a couple weeks but they'll be distracted shortly thereafter and find something new to complain about. The same thing happened when Pope John Paul II compared abortion to the Holocaust, when he beatified Pius IX, when Edith Steirn was canonized, when a former Nazi-youth was elected Pope, when a Mass was offered in honor of Pius XII, etc.
 
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Fish and Bread

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Don't worry Fish, I know full well the implications of this and it is as you so pointedly described. However, despite my disagreements with his Lordship, Bishop Williamson, his views on the Jews, does in a very indirect way, makes one think that whilst his views on the holocaust down play the scale of it (yes, I've watched his interview in Sweden), it reminds one that in Jewish-Catholic Dialogue the doctrinal expression and the way prayers are expressed in the Catholic liturgy should not be unduly influenced by the pro-Zionist lobby particularly those Jews in the United States, or even in Italy who attack the Pope or the Catholic Church in general for seeking authentic expression of Catholic belief and action [praying for the Jews' salvation and conversion to the Holy Catholic faith and for they not to languish in unbelief of the Messias,] in regards to Jews in general. A prime example of this would be the Good-Friday Prayers for the Conversion of the Jews, that even though the Previous Good Friday prayer [in the Missal of Blessed John XXIII] was wholly Good (Nota Bene: Bl. John XXIII did remove the word "perfidious" which means "half-believing" in Latin, which did adequately describe the Jews as the only Half-belief the revelation of God in that, they only accept the Old Testament and reject the other half: that is the Messias Christ Jhesus and the whole of the New Testament: the Sacraments and the Holy Catholic Church and the fullness of her truth completely; furthermore, once the prayer had this deleted: we prayed that God would lift the "veil" from their eyes so that they would convert to the True Holy Catholic faith. Mind you, the prayer is perfectly then reasonably and comes directly from scripture as Christ HIMSELF says that the Jews' eyes are "veiled." Veiled in this sense, means not willing to believe in or see the truth that Christ is the Son of the Living God: God incarnate, and the New Covenant and Catholic Church which he established for our salvation's sake; because they [the Jews] have "hardened their hearts" and [as scripture also says of them, that they..]have been "willfully blind.") Pope Benedict XVI then gave a revised version of the prayer (which didn't contain the word "perfidious;" it was then: still was inadequate for the Jews!! They would not have us pray for their conversion to the One True and Holy Catholic Faith! They didn't want us praying for their salvation: they want us to change our DOCTRINE so that we accept the Old Testament as being valid for their salvation (and that they could be saved outside of the pale of the One Holy Catholic Church); when simply that is not the case: Christ completed and fulfiled the Old Covenant and established the New Covenant: the New Testament. Given such, the Old Testament is no longer valid having been superceded by the Messias and the New Covenant of Christ Jhesus. Hence, it is very much important for the Holy Mother Church to encourage friendly relations and peaceful dialogue between the Jews and the Holy Catholic Church, but never to make vague, ambiguious wishy-washy or even to permit heretical expressions or erroneous interpretations of Catholic doctrine or dogma for the comfort or sake of any non-Catholic sects, including the modern-day Jewish sects; it has sadly been such that has impaired true dialogue between Jews and Catholics and has not borne into fruition a proper dialogue yet, due to false catechtical and inter-religious statements that speak as if they Jewish Old Covenant were still valid or efficaious for the Jews' salvation; and neglects the full and absolute necessity of the Jews' accept and recoginition our Good Saviour Christ Jesus as the True Messias, God incarnate, and necessity of being apart of the Body of Christ: that is the Holy Mother Church for the sake of one's own soul's salvation.

Obviously, the Church's teachings has always been, and must continue to be, that the Church is the continuation of the people of God and that the New Covenant supersedes the old one -- there's nothing racist about that. The Church, in a spiritual sense, is the New Israel.

However, the problem is, that Bishop Williamson and others like him take a defense of Church doctrine, and suddenly go well past it, incorporating racist historical revisionism and hurtful theological opinion that the Church has defined as being inaccurate. Then, they defend this other stuff as though it were Church doctrine and try to confuse it with Church doctrine in the popular mind.

For example, Bishop Williamson said that Jews today share in the guilt of the decision to crucify Jesus, but the Church teaches that they don't. This matter was settled in Nostra Aetate. He also denies the holocaust and talks about some sort "Zionist" conspiracy theory and the fraudulent protocols of Zion. Then when he goes on this rants about how he expects to be a marytar for his beliefs. You can be a marytar for preaching the faith, but you can't be a marytar for being a racist conspiracy theorist spreading teachings that conflict with the Church.

I'm trying not to attack Bishop Williamson. He may well be a good person in desperate deep of some psychological help. This gentleman once referred to the Sound of Music as having "all the elements of pornography... just waiting to break out". And his conspiracy theories aren't limited to dealing with Judiasm, either -- I won't even get into his views on the 9-11 attacks.

I just geniunely wonder if there isn't something that he needs help for. I'm going to give him the benefit of a doubt and say that perhaps there is no malice behind his racisit views, but if that's the case, there's got to be a deeper issue there somewhere. He's Cambridge educated, he should know better than this stuff.
 
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Virgil the Roman

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In this case, although, I heavily dislike Nostra Aetate as its too ambiguous,* Nostra Aetate does a good job in illustrating the point that the Jews today, are not coporatively held responsible for the deicide of Christ.

*(we won't discuss my opinons upon it though, perhaps another day: but not today,) it [Nostra Aetate does bring up the particular point [which is a good thing that it helps to counter any truly anti-Semitic sentiments against the Jews; however, this doesn't mean one cannot oppose the State of Isreal, Zionism, or the Pro-Zionist influence-groups. for their undue influence. One just cannot as a whole condemn or do them violence, for that would be inherently evil.)
 
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Ave Maria

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If the excommunications are lifted, I suppose that this would be good news! However, if the bishops whose excommunications are supposedly to be lifted have bad views on the Holocaust, I would not be so sure that lifting their excommunication would be a good thing until and unless they change their views on the Holocaust.
 
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