Pope = Antichrist? from lcms website

[ILoveYeshua]

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=579

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=579

Of the Antichrist
(St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.)

[Adopted 1932]

43. As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist "as God sitteth in the temple of God," 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ's sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation -- these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is "the very Antichrist." (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)


I was unaware that this was the LCMS official position! huh. But if the pope believes that Jesus is the Christ, then how could he be... antichrist? What do y'all think?

 

[LutherNut]

But if the pope believes that Jesus is the Christ, then how could he be... antichrist? What do y'all think?

That in itself means nothing.
Even Satan and demons believe that Jesus is the Christ.

 

[ILoveYeshua]

> That in itself means nothing. Even Satan and demons believe that Jesus is the Christ.

oh yeah, you have a good point there! lol.

So that must be why I always get warned when I post scripture over in OBOB, cuz they're antichrist (based on lcms doctrine) and thus despise the scriptures. A couple times I've posted straight-up words of Christ, not even adding any comments of my own, and the post got deleted..... huh. learn something new everyday.

 

[Tetzel]

I thought by your name you'd be a messianic Jew, but your faith icon says LCMS. Are you new to the LCMS?

 

[KEPLER]

We should be careful to note here that this is speaking of the office of the papacy, not about individual men. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Bendict XVI) may indeed be a child of God, who are we to judge his heart? But the office stands in opposition to Christ's intent for the Church.

Kepler

 

[LilLamb219]

cuz they're antichrist (based on lcms doctrine)

Huh? That's not true.

 

[KEPLER]

So that must be why I always get warned when I post scripture over in OBOB, cuz they're antichrist (based on lcms doctrine) and thus despise the scriptures.

Erm...as LilLamb noted, that is not the case. They are people who confess the Divinity of Christ, just as we do. We make no such judgments about them. Please be very careful with that, eh?

Eric

 

[ILoveYeshua]

did you go to the website? thats the lcms position

 

[hsilgne]

That in itself means nothing.
Even Satan and demons believe that Jesus is the Christ.

Excellent point... therefore faith alone obviously, is not enough to save our souls.

 

[LilLamb219]

At the moment the LCMS website is down. But you are mistaken if you think we find other denominations to be the anti-christ. I'm certain that is not what the site says.

 

[LilLamb219]

Excellent point... therefore faith alone obviously, is not enough to save our souls.

Believing that Jesus exists and having faith for salvation are two different things.

 

[night2day]

...the office stands in opposition to Christ's intent for the Church...

Exactly.

The Office of the Papacy claimimg to be Christ's Vicar on Earth is reason enough for it to be termed an Anti-Christ.

The Office of the Papacy basically is stating it has the power and the authority the Holy Spirit only has.

Therefore, the office is against Christ.

 

[night2day]

At the moment the LCMS website is down. But you are mistaken if you think we find other denominations to be the anti-christ. I'm certain that is not what the site says.

First one should define anti-christ. An anti-christ is one who stands on opposition to Christ. But it is also someone who tries to take the place of Christ.

If one looks at the denominations* in Christianity, which ones profess within their teachings a false Christ? A false gospel? What about those who proclaim Christ yet proclaim all will be saved and have admittance to Heaven without being saved by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ alone?

There are a number of denominations falling into apostosy and will continue to do so as this world continues to draw closer to the End when Jesus will return. Jesus stated it would be this way so it should come as no surprise.

(*when I refer to denominations, I usually refer to what that denomination teaches and proclaims, not the individual members, unless otherwise noted.)

 

[SPALATIN]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I believe that these first 4 speak to this question fairly well.[/FONT]

You can find the whole document here.





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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+2][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+2]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+2][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+2][c]A Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope[/c][/FONT][c][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Treatise[/FONT][/c][/FONT]

[/FONT][c]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+2][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Compiled by the Theologians Assembled at Smalcald [/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+2][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1537[/FONT] [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/c]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+2][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1] The Roman Pontiff claims for himself [in the first place] that by divine right he is [supreme] above all bishops and pastors [in all Christendom].[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+2][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2] Secondly, he adds also that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowing kingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions etc.].[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+2][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3] And thirdly, he says that to believe this is necessary for salvation. And for these reasons the Roman bishop calls himself [and boasts that he is] the vicar of Christ on earth.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+2][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4] These three articles we hold to be false, godless, tyrannical, and [quite] pernicious to the Church.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[LutherNut]

Excellent point... therefore faith alone obviously, is not enough to save our souls.

Knowing who Jesus is does not equate to saving faith. Just because Satan and his angels know who Jesus is and that He is the Christ, the Holy One of God, does not mean that they are saved. They do not have saving faith. They openly reject the gift of faith in Christ, opting to do things for themselves - a works-based righteousness.

Hmmm... that sounds familiar...

 

[Tetzel]

Well the whole idea of salvation's rules being applied to angels and demons is irrelevant because salvation is for people.

 

[hsilgne]

Hmmm... that sounds familiar...

I am not familiar with that, can you point out where I might find such a teaching?

What I am familiar with, however, is the teaching that works are a result of faith. Without faith there are no works. Refer to James Chapter 2. Below is an excerpt. In particular, verse 20 hits the nail on the head, IMHO.


JAMES, Chapter 2
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

 

[KEPLER]

I am not familiar with that, can you point out where I might find such a teaching?

What I am familiar with, however, is the teaching that works are a result of faith. Without faith there are no works. Refer to James Chapter 2. Below is an excerpt. In particular, verse 20 hits the nail on the head, IMHO.

JAMES, Chapter 2
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

Yes, an excellent example of the a posteriori view of faith: Post hoc ergo propter hoc. IOW, "Works follow faith, therefore they are caused by faith."

They do not, however, produce faith, neither do they measure faith.

Kepler

 

[hsilgne]

Yes, an excellent example of the a posteriori view of faith: Post hoc ergo propter hoc. IOW, "Works follow faith, therefore they are caused by faith."
They do not, however, produce faith, neither do they measure faith.
Kepler

Your implication here, correct me if I am wrong, is that the Catholic church teaches you can "work your way into heaven". Like many misinformed protestants, you are incorrect.

If you would like to learn more, you can read an accurate representation of what the Church teaches here > http://www.newman99.com/17.html

Peace in Christ.

 

[SPALATIN]

Your implication here, correct me if I am wrong, is that the Catholic church teaches you can "work your way into heaven". Like many misinformed protestants, you are incorrect.

If you would like to learn more, you can read an accurate representation of what the Church teaches here > http://www.newman99.com/17.html

Peace in Christ.

No,

Actually he is saying that according to the Roman Catholic Church that works produce faith not that they save you. Whereas the Lutheran Church states the opposite that Works are a fruit of faith received in sanctification from the Holy Spirit.