Poor Martin Luther....

[MikhaelDavid]

Lulav,

I just wanted to make two quick points to your post that does not deal with Luther and his sinful work....

Point 1, David was guilty of Murder, 2 Sam 12:9 states "Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon."

Point 2, Luther understanding of women bearing children is based on the text of scripture and based on "Werck"..

"Be fruitful and multiply" [Gen. 1:28]. From this passage we may be assured that man and woman should and must come together in order to multiply. Now this [ordinance] is just as inflexible as the first, and no more to be despised and made fun of than the other, since God gives it his blessing and does something over and above the act of creation.

For this word which God speaks, "Be fruitful and multiply," is not a command. It is more than a command, namely, a divine ordinance [werck] which it is not our prerogative to hinder or ignore. Rather, it is just as necessary as the fact that I am a man, and more necessary than sleeping and waking, eating and drinking, and emptying the bowels and bladder. It is a nature and disposition just as innate as the organs involved in it.

Point #1 King David was not a murderer, he did order that Batsheva's husband be sent to the front lines, he wasn't the only one there. Circumstances suited his favor however. He was not accused of murder by Nathan, but of stealing another man's wife.

Point #2 MD said "Additionally,

Luther said in Works 20.84, That women are to keep bearing children until the day they die... "Even though women grow weary and wear themselves out with child-bearing, it does not matter; let them go on bearing children till they die"

In other words, women should not stop bearing children just because they are 30, 35, 40, or 45 and that if they are still alive let them go on bearing children... "

Just where does his opinion come in as to a woman bearing children, they need his permission? So because he says they should keep on bearing that they can? Doesn't make sense to me. If you think that anyone saying that a woman should keep on having children until the day she dies is a caring human being you should think again. This is totally not Jewish thought at all, the womans life has more merit than more children. She is not thought of as just a womb.

Point #3. The decision today can be made to drive or not drive a Ford, I don't and won't.

Point #4 "Anyway, I agree with Visionary about Luther, "Appreciate the good he did for the people"."

Not to disagree here but that kind of thinking can lead to much more sin. Apply that to the 'celibate' priests of the RCC who have been found to have been child molesters. Or mobsters that donate to charity ....................it goes on and on...............

Last point, I don't think he needs an entire thread dedicated to his defense. His words had far reaching repercussions that still today we live with. The 'good' he did will never erase that , nor bring back 6,000,000 Jews.

 

[Lulav]

Point 1, David was guilty of Murder, 2 Sam 12:9 states "Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon."

With any study there are two approaches: the easy way, and the academic way. The easy way is to take a quick glance, automatically factor in your personal life experiences and preconceived notions, and draw quick conclusions based on how you would relate to that situation. The academic way is to examine and reexamine the subject matter. To do that is it necessary to take yourself, and your own biases, out of the picture. You must view the subject matter through the life experiences of the subjects involved, and open your mind to new ideas.

Have a read here about what the Hebrew says and what the true circumstances were. Have a look at the Judaic perspective.

 

[Desert Rose]

Michael David, we are not ganging up on you, buddy, but there is NO WAY that quote can be given any positive commentary.

All the good things, giving finger to immoral RCC practices, it was great of him. He had guts to fight against the establisment. Perf. But what he says about women is downright ungodly! In the worst possible way, its clinging to the letter of the law, without showing love for a human . Would you say "I want my wife to keep bearing children beyond her physical ability and if she dies - so be it! If she leaves little children motherless- so be it! It says right here" be fruitful and multiply"!

It would be an idiotic, stupid behaivor and worthy only of loveless ungodly religionists. Its ANTI-GOD. No christian can say things like that and be commended.
Thanks,by giving the extended quotes you opened my eyes on how childish that boy Mart.Luther was and how badly in need for anger management.

Some shrink in CA would made a mint on treating him nowadays...

 

[Lulav]

He could have sent 10 kids to college.................................

 

[Desert Rose]

Another thing - lets not hide behind "those were the times" excuse.. Granted, culture has an impact but what is immoral and evil has to be labeled as such. David had many wives- he sinned!! Solomon had many wives and harem of callgirls - its a sin, does anybody object here?

Lets not call Luther's evil views "good" just because it was the norm in that day.

 

[Desert Rose]

He could have sent 10 kids to college.................................

yeap,... i do doubt californian psychiatrist has that many . His wife is a modern woman, not taught by Luther how much to birth

 

[Lulav]

I didn't say they had to all be his!

 

[MikhaelDavid]

Deleted....

Arggg, I am being dragged into this again when I said I was done...

 

[Lulav]

Point being that Christians call David a murderer, Jews don't.

 

[yedida]

Point being that Christians call David a murderer, Jews don't.

I don't want to speak out of turn (as I'm not Jewish and cannot speak out of experience) but don't all Jews kind of have it ingrained in them from day one that all Jews, good and bad, have a part in olam haba?

"Christians or Gentiles" (as some Christians are christian only because they believe in some form of higher power and aren't a part of any other "religion" so they claim Jesus and warm a church pew once in a while) don't have that understanding. To have a good place in the afterlife, they must "do" something (while not doing anything at all but believing....) - now that IS confusing! Guess that's why they fight so hard against walking Torah, huh? And why they are constantly debating "once saved, always saved'....

Torah tells his people 'you're there, buddy, and while on you're journey to there, here's how to live out the promise.' Christians have trouble understanding that the Torah was given, not to a group of unregenerate, unredeemed people, but to a people already redeemed.