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Poor Martin Luther....

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MikhaelDavid

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In another thread the Reformer Martin Luther was greatly slammed by a quote of his.. A quote taken without a context of his subject or the context of his day..

The quote was "Woman should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children." and "If a woman grows weary and, at last, dies from child bearing, it matters not. Let her die from bearing; she is there to do it." Martin Luther (1483-1546)

Rhetoric was part of his day and was how everyone spoke and debated... Much of the Rhetoric would be considered insulting these days of political correctness..

You should see how he himself insults himself when talking about how God showed him justification by faith alone..

But I thought I would show the sensitive side of Martin Luther to show that he is not at all bad when it comes to women and children...

"Now observe that when that clever harlot, our natural reason (which the pagans followed in trying to be most clever), takes a look at married life, she turns up her nose and says, “Alas, must I rock the baby, wash its diapers, make its bed, smell its stench, stay up nights with it, take care of it when it cries, heal its rashes and sores, and on top of that care for my wife, provide for her, labour at my trade, take care of this and take care of that, do this and do that, endure this and endure that, and whatever else of bitterness and drudgery married life involves? What, should I make such a prisoner of myself? 0 you poor, wretched fellow, have you taken a wife? Fie, fie upon such wretchedness and bitterness! It is better to remain free and lead a peaceful. carefree life; I will become a priest or a nun and compel my children to do likewise.”


What then does Christian faith say to this? It opens its eyes, looks upon all these insignificant, distasteful, and despised duties in the Spirit, and is aware that they are all adorned with divine approval as with the costliest gold and jewels. It says, “0 God, because I am certain that thou hast created me as a man and hast from my body begotten this child, I also know for a certainty that it meets with thy perfect pleasure. I confess to thee that I am not worthy to rock the little babe or wash its diapers. or to be entrusted with the care of the child and its mother. How is it that I, without any merit, have come to this distinction of being certain that I am serving thy creature and thy most precious will? 0 how gladly will I do so, though the duties should be even more insignificant and despised. Neither frost nor heat, neither drudgery nor labour, will distress or dissuade me, for I am certain that it is thus pleasing in thy sight.”
A wife too should regard her duties in the same light, as she suckles the child, rocks and bathes it, and cares for it in other ways; and as she busies herself with other duties and renders help and obedience to her husband. These are truly golden and noble works. . . .


Now you tell me, when a father goes ahead and washes diapers or performs some other mean task for his child, and someone ridicules him as an effeminate fool, though that father is acting in the spirit just described and in Christian faith, my dear fellow you tell me, which of the two is most keenly ridiculing the other? God, with all his angels and creatures, is smiling, not because that father is washing diapers, but because he is doing so in Christian faith. Those who sneer at him and see only the task but not the faith are ridiculing God with all his creatures, as the biggest fool on earth. Indeed, they are only ridiculing themselves; with all their cleverness they are nothing but devil’s fools."


Martin Luther, On the Estate of Marriage
 

Desert Rose

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Dear Michael, I respect your thoroughness in studying and desire to get into deeper knowledge.
You are a fine man, indeed.

However, IN NO CONTEXT the quote can be considered worthy of a man of God, let alone one who wishes to be a teacher. Quote is mean, nasty, ugly, ungodly, heartless, illmannered and potrays Luther acting as a spoiled , tantrum throwing child at best and stupid woman-hater overcompensating for a short body part at worst.

We all say things we regret later, often in the heat of the moment. This is a quote that ML could - and should have been -VERY ashamed of
 
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MikhaelDavid

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Okay... Here are some more things from the same work of Martin Luther and I believe the source for his so-called nasty quote which I think was ripped and twisted from this work...

Note the following from the Estate of Marriage by Martin Luther...

What we would speak most of is the fact that the estate of marriage has universally fallen into such awful disrepute. There are many pagan books which treat of nothing but the depravity of womankind and the unhappiness of the estate of marriage, such that some have thought that even if Wisdom itself were a woman one should not marry...

So they concluded that woman is a necessary evil, and that no household can be without such an evil. These are the words of blind heathen, who are ignorant of the fact that man and woman are God's creation. They blaspheme his work, as if man and woman just came into being spontaneously! I imagine that if women were to write books they would say exactly the same thing about men. What they have failed to set down in writing, however, they express with their grumbling and complaining whenever they get together....

In order that we may not proceed as blindly, but rather conduct ourselves in a Christian manner, hold fast first of all to this, that man and woman are the work of God. Keep a tight rein on your heart and your lips; do not criticise his work, or call that evil which he himself has called good. He knows better than you yourself what is good and to your benefit, as he says in Genesis 1 [2:18], "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." There you see that he calls the woman good, a helper. If you deem it otherwise, it is certainly your own fault, you neither understand nor believe God's word and work. See, with this statement of God one stops the mouths of all those who criticise and censure marriage....

This is also how to comfort and encourage a woman in the pangs of childbirth, not by repeating St Margaret legends and other silly old wives' tales but by speaking thus, "Dear Grete, remember that you are a woman, and that this work of God in you is pleasing to him. Trust joyfully in his will, and let him have his way with you. Work with all your might to bring forth the child. Should it mean your death, then depart happily, for you will die in a noble deed and in subservience to God. If you were not a woman you should now wish to be one for the sake of this very work alone, that you might thus gloriously suffer and even die in the performance of God's work and will. For here you have the word of God, who so created you and implanted within you this extremity." Tell me, is not this indeed (as Solomon says [Prov. 18:22]) "to obtain favour from the Lord," even in the midst of such extremity?
 
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Lulav

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I personally do not appreciate Martin Luther being lauded for anything in this forum. What he has to say about women is the least of his sins.

These things he not only said but wrote down and published. It was not 'off the cuff' or without thought, it reveals in a small part his true feelings.

Anyone that publishes a paper titled :
Martin Luther: The Jews and Their Lies


Does not deserve posting space on the MJ forum.
 
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MikhaelDavid

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It is true he wrote that... One of his worst works and later beliefs of his... He did not hold to such views till near the ending of his life.. I can only hope it was some disease that was messing with his mind as some have said.. Earlier in his life he stated "When we are inclined to boast of our position as Christians we should remember that we are but Gentiles, while the Jews are of the lineage of Christ. We are aliens and in-laws; they are blood relatives, cousins, and brothers of our Lord. Therefore, if one is to boast of flesh and blood the Jews are actually nearer to Christ than we are." I do not know what changed his mind but perhaps a disease...

I would also say that I disagree with how he treated his own wife.. He should have done what I posted above from him but sadly did not provide for her and she had to raise money to feed them while he always gave things away..

He is but a man and fallible at that.. I still respect most of his works though not one of my favorite Reformer...

I personally do not appreciate Martin Luther being lauded for anything in this forum. What he has to say about women is the least of his sins.

These things he not only said but wrote down and published. It was not 'off the cuff' or without thought, it reveals in a small part his true feelings.

Anyone that publishes a paper titled :
Martin Luther: The Jews and Their Lies


Does not deserve posting space on the MJ forum.
 
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MikhaelDavid

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Additionally,

Luther said in Works 20.84, That women are to keep bearing children until the day they die... "Even though women grow weary and wear themselves out with child-bearing, it does not matter; let them go on bearing children till they die"

In other words, women should not stop bearing children just because they are 30, 35, 40, or 45 and that if they are still alive let them go on bearing children...
 
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yedida

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In another thread the Reformer Martin Luther was greatly slammed by a quote of his.. A quote taken without a context of his subject or the context of his day..

The quote was "Woman should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children." and "If a woman grows weary and, at last, dies from child bearing, it matters not. Let her die from bearing; she is there to do it." Martin Luther (1483-1546)

Rhetoric was part of his day and was how everyone spoke and debated... Much of the Rhetoric would be considered insulting these days of political correctness..

You should see how he himself insults himself when talking about how God showed him justification by faith alone..

But I thought I would show the sensitive side of Martin Luther to show that he is not at all bad when it comes to women and children...

"Now observe that when that clever harlot, our natural reason (which the pagans followed in trying to be most clever), takes a look at married life, she turns up her nose and says, “Alas, must I rock the baby, wash its diapers, make its bed, smell its stench, stay up nights with it, take care of it when it cries, heal its rashes and sores, and on top of that care for my wife, provide for her, labour at my trade, take care of this and take care of that, do this and do that, endure this and endure that, and whatever else of bitterness and drudgery married life involves? What, should I make such a prisoner of myself? 0 you poor, wretched fellow, have you taken a wife? Fie, fie upon such wretchedness and bitterness! It is better to remain free and lead a peaceful. carefree life; I will become a priest or a nun and compel my children to do likewise.”


What then does Christian faith say to this? It opens its eyes, looks upon all these insignificant, distasteful, and despised duties in the Spirit, and is aware that they are all adorned with divine approval as with the costliest gold and jewels. It says, “0 God, because I am certain that thou hast created me as a man and hast from my body begotten this child, I also know for a certainty that it meets with thy perfect pleasure. I confess to thee that I am not worthy to rock the little babe or wash its diapers. or to be entrusted with the care of the child and its mother. How is it that I, without any merit, have come to this distinction of being certain that I am serving thy creature and thy most precious will? 0 how gladly will I do so, though the duties should be even more insignificant and despised. Neither frost nor heat, neither drudgery nor labour, will distress or dissuade me, for I am certain that it is thus pleasing in thy sight.”
A wife too should regard her duties in the same light, as she suckles the child, rocks and bathes it, and cares for it in other ways; and as she busies herself with other duties and renders help and obedience to her husband. These are truly golden and noble works. . . .


Now you tell me, when a father goes ahead and washes diapers or performs some other mean task for his child, and someone ridicules him as an effeminate fool, though that father is acting in the spirit just described and in Christian faith, my dear fellow you tell me, which of the two is most keenly ridiculing the other? God, with all his angels and creatures, is smiling, not because that father is washing diapers, but because he is doing so in Christian faith. Those who sneer at him and see only the task but not the faith are ridiculing God with all his creatures, as the biggest fool on earth. Indeed, they are only ridiculing themselves; with all their cleverness they are nothing but devil’s fools."


Martin Luther, On the Estate of Marriage

Wanna try to defend his anti semitism? Amd making hatred of any group of people at any time as being okay cos it's part of the culture won't pass the test of the scriptures.
(Sorry, friemd mine, I just don't trust this man.)
 
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yedida

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Dear Michael, I respect your thoroughness in studying and desire to get into deeper knowledge.
You are a fine man, indeed.

However, IN NO CONTEXT the quote can be considered worthy of a man of God, let alone one who wishes to be a teacher. Quote is mean, nasty, ugly, ungodly, heartless, illmannered and potrays Luther acting as a spoiled , tantrum throwing child at best and stupid woman-hater overcompensating for a short body part at worst.

We all say things we regret later, often in the heat of the moment. This is a quote that ML could - and should have been -VERY ashamed of

Agreed!
If he spoke (got printed) out of turn, he should have had a retraction done, which it doesn't sppear that he did, so......
I just don't trust him.
 
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MikhaelDavid

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Nope, his anti-semitism does not need defending... As I stated, I do not agree with him here....

Wanna try to defend his anti semitism? Amd making hatred of any group of people at any time as being okay cos it's part of the culture won't pass the test of the scriptures.
(Sorry, friemd mine, I just don't trust this man.)
 
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yedida

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Thats the problem.. He did not say it in that way.... Someone twisted his words... The original quote has no source from anything is said or wrote...


It's okay if you want to think he's great but I have the same right to think differently. If it was just this particular quote that concerned me there'd be no problem but there are just too many ill-thought out statements that don't line up with scripture for me to think highly of him. I don't trust him.
 
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MikhaelDavid

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Yedida,

I guess what I am trying to say is, castrate the man for what he is guilty of and not of things he is not guilty of...

He wrote a very anti-Jewish tract and is guilty of not loving his neighbor and violation of the 6th commandment for murder in his mind against the jews...

But he was not guilty of being a women-hater and that quote was twisted to make him seem like it...

I respect him for the many things he did to right... I do not respect him for his later views on the Jews...

Here is a thought,

I hope no one here has an automobile.. Henry Ford who invented automobiles was just as bad for being anti-jew as Martin Luther and he was a member of the Nazi party and wrote a large book against the jews..

Accept the Cars and Reject Fords Views.. Accept Martin Luther for standing up and breaking with the Catholic Church and for the many good things he wrote but Reject His Views on Jewry..

I will stress again, I do not agree with Luther on his views of the Jews and it can not be defended in anyway... Just as I can not defend King David's murder to take Bethsheba.. Both are sinful.. King David did many good things as well...

Michael

It's okay if you want to think he's great but I have the same right to think differently. If it was just this particular quote that concerned me there'd be no problem but there are just too many ill-thought out statements that don't line up with scripture for me to think highly of him. I don't trust him.
 
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yedida

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Yedida,

I guess what I am trying to say is, castrate the man for what he is guilty of and not of things he is not guilty of...

He wrote a very anti-Jewish tract and is guilty of not loving his neighbor and violation of the 6th commandment for murder in his mind against the jews...

But he was not guilty of being a women-hater and that quote was twisted to make him seem like it...

I respect him for the many things he did to right... I do not respect him for his later views on the Jews...

Here is a thought,

I hope no one here has an automobile.. Henry Ford who invented automobiles was just as bad for being anti-jew as Martin Luther and he was a member of the Nazi party and wrote a large book against the jews..

Accept the Cars and Reject Fords Views.. Accept Martin Luther for standing up and breaking with the Catholic Church and for the many good things he wrote but Reject His Views on Jewry..

I will stress again, I do not agree with Luther on his views of the Jews and it can not be defended in anyway... Just as I can not defend King David's murder to take Bethsheba.. Both are sinful.. King David did many good things as well...

Michael

King David was not the appointed spiritual leader, he was king. The line of Levi were the appointed spiritual leaders.
I may have bouycotted (spelling?) Henry Ford back in his day, but today his views have nothing to do with his cars. His mission was not as spiritual leader then nor now, his job was to make cars.
Luther was supposed to be a spiritual leader so if you believe that 1Jn 2:4, 9, 3:15, 23-24, 4:7-8 speak the truth then he may have done some good works but....what John said.
There are enough pitfalls and bad teachers right in the here and now without having to wade through teachings of a man whose words fall short of the scripture standard. As far as his eternal standing goes, we have no knowledge whether he got things straightened out with the Lord, but the words we have of him, I don't trust.
 
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visionary

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In Martin Luther's day, he was a bright light in the catholism room. In today's light he isn't so bright. What he did for the reformation was revolutionary for his day, but wouldn't cause much of a speed bump in today's religious market. Appreciate the good he did for the people he did do good for.

The Lord is moving upon his people to move on in the truth, the light, and the way. It is far beyond what Luther could have possible imagined. It is a message for this generation. What we are to soon experience is far different from what the people in his day could expect.
 
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MikhaelDavid

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Yedida,

Emotions are high here... So I think it best to not continue longer into this topic... I would like to point how that David was a Prophet in a sense since he wrote Scripture from the hand of God.. In fact he wrote about Holiness through the book of Psalms..

Anyway, I agree with Visionary about Luther, "Appreciate the good he did for the people".

I believe we are all in agreement that what Luther said regarding the Jews were wrong and sinful and nobody is defending him in that....

:wave:

King David was not the appointed spiritual leader, he was king. The line of Levi were the appointed spiritual leaders.
I may have bouycotted (spelling?) Henry Ford back in his day, but today his views have nothing to do with his cars. His mission was not as spiritual leader then nor now, his job was to make cars.
Luther was supposed to be a spiritual leader so if you believe that 1Jn 2:4, 9, 3:15, 23-24, 4:7-8 speak the truth then he may have done some good works but....what John said.
There are enough pitfalls and bad teachers right in the here and now without having to wade through teachings of a man whose words fall short of the scripture standard. As far as his eternal standing goes, we have no knowledge whether he got things straightened out with the Lord, but the words we have of him, I don't trust.
 
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Lulav

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Point #1 King David was not a murderer, he did order that Batsheva's husband be sent to the front lines, he wasn't the only one there. Circumstances suited his favor however. He was not accused of murder by Nathan, but of stealing another man's wife.

Point #2 MD said "Additionally,

Luther said in Works 20.84, That women are to keep bearing children until the day they die... "Even though women grow weary and wear themselves out with child-bearing, it does not matter; let them go on bearing children till they die"

In other words, women should not stop bearing children just because they are 30, 35, 40, or 45 and that if they are still alive let them go on bearing children... "

Just where does his opinion come in as to a woman bearing children, they need his permission? So because he says they should keep on bearing that they can? Doesn't make sense to me. If you think that anyone saying that a woman should keep on having children until the day she dies is a caring human being you should think again. This is totally not Jewish thought at all, the womans life has more merit than more children. She is not thought of as just a womb.

Point #3. The decision today can be made to drive or not drive a Ford, I don't and won't.

Point #4 "Anyway, I agree with Visionary about Luther, "Appreciate the good he did for the people"."

Not to disagree here but that kind of thinking can lead to much more sin. Apply that to the 'celibate' priests of the RCC who have been found to have been child molesters. Or mobsters that donate to charity ....................it goes on and on...............

Last point, I don't think he needs an entire thread dedicated to his defense. His words had far reaching repercussions that still today we live with. The 'good' he did will never erase that , nor bring back 6,000,000 Jews.
 
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Lulav

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Even the church that goes by his name has distanced themselves from him.

In 1994, the Church Council of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America rejected Luther's anti-Semitic writings.


Lutherans belonging to the Lutheran World Federation and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America feel a special burden in this regard because of certain elements in the legacy of the reformer Martin Luther and the catastrophes, including the Holocaust of the twentieth century, suffered by Jews in places where the Lutheran churches were strongly represented.
 
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