Poor Design

[Farid]

since your a scientist, you would certainly know that the Second Law of Thermodynamics says that everything is to go RANDOM. How then, can 206 bones get to gether in some sort of a design to for a protective skeleton around you vital organs? Gel a bit cellular, how could that Law stand when a cell functionss with its membrane around and the energy plant, i.e. mitochondria supplying ATP's and so on. Molecularly, how could genes and DNA be at such ORDER as to codes for certain proteins to do certain jobs. How could a newly formed protein folds in an ordered fashion to fit a goove in a receptor to producea cellular response. All these are against the Laws of Thermodynamics, and require a Master Engineer to create them.

Except that is a logic fallacy because God's existence can't be proven now can it? You are answering a problem with an unsubstantiated claim. Prove God exists and then I'll believe you when you say that poor design's purpose is for us to go to Heaven someday.

In other words, back up your assertion about God existing before you try to explain away poor design. Evolution explains poor design, Intelligent Design theory is refuted by poor design.

 

[NamesAreHardToPick]

Where in the Bible does it say that man's body was made to sustain forever?

Where in the Bible does it suggest that God is not intelligent?

And I'm not going to get into all the philosophic problems with the Bible as this is a Christian place, but my point would be that's the last source I could trust anyway.

 

[NamesAreHardToPick]

since your a scientist, you would certainly know that the Second Law of Thermodynamics says that everything is to go RANDOM. How then, can 206 bones get to gether in some sort of a design to for a protective skeleton around you vital organs? Gel a bit cellular, how could that Law stand when a cell functionss with its membrane around and the energy plant, i.e. mitochondria supplying ATP's and so on. Molecularly, how could genes and DNA be at such ORDER as to codes for certain proteins to do certain jobs. How could a newly formed protein folds in an ordered fashion to fit a goove in a receptor to producea cellular response. All these are against the Laws of Thermodynamics, and require a Master Engineer to create them.

Oh Dear ...

Claim CF001:

The second law of thermodynamics says that everything tends towards disorder, making evolutionary development impossible.
Source:

Morris, Henry M., 1974. Scientific Creationism, Green Forest, AR: Master Books, pp. 38-46.
Response:

1. The second law of thermodynamics says no such thing. It says heat will not spontaneously flow from a colder body to a warmer one, or equivalently, that total entropy (a measure of useful energy) in a closed system will not decrease. This doesn't prevent increasing order because
   • the earth is not a closed system; sunlight (with low entropy) shines on it and heat (with higher entropy) radiates off. This flow of energy, and the change in entropy which accompanies it, can and will power local decreases in entropy on earth.
   • entropy is not the same as disorder. Sometimes the two correspond, but sometimes order increases as entropy increases. [Aranda-Espinoza et al. 1999; Kestenbaum 1998] Entropy can even be used to produce order, such as in the sorting of molecules by size [Han and Craighead 2000].
   • even in a closed system, pockets of lower entropy can form if they are offset by increased entropy elsewhere in the system.
   In short, order from disorder happens on earth all the time.
   
2. The only processes necessary for evolution to occur are reproduction, heritable variation, and selection. All of these are seen to happen all the time, so obviously no physical laws are preventing them. In fact, connections between evolution and entropy have been studied in depth, and never to the detriment of evolution [Demetrius 2000].
   
   Several scientists have proposed that evolution and the origin of life is driven by entropy [McShea 1998]. Some see the information content of organisms subject to diversification according to the 2nd law [Brooks and Wiley 1988], so organisms diversify to fill empty niches much as a gas expands to fill an empty container. Others propose that highly ordered complex systems emerge and evolve to dissipate energy (and increase overall entropy) more efficiently [Schneider and Kay 1994].
3. Creationists themselves admit increasing order is possible. They introduce fictional exceptions to the law to account for it.
4. Creationists themselves make claims that directly contradict their claims about the second law of thermodynamics, such as hydrological sorting of fossils during the Flood.

References:

1. Aranda-Espinoza, H., Y. Chen, N. Dan, T. C. Lubensky, P. Nelson, L. Ramos and D. A. Weitz, 1999. Electrostatic repulsion of positively charged vesicles and negatively charged objects. Science 285: 394-397.
2. Brooks, D. R. and E. O. Wiley, 1988. Evolution As Entropy, University of Chicago Press.
3. Kestenbaum, David, 1998. Gentle force of entropy bridges disciplines. Science 279: 1849.
4. Han, J. and H. G. Craighead, 2000. Separation of long DNA molecules in a microfabricated entropic trap array. Science 288: 1026-1029.
5. Demetrius, Lloyd, 2000. Theromodynamics and evolution. Journal of Theoretical Biology 206(1): 1-16. http://www.idealibrary.com/links/doi/10.1006/jtbi.2000.2106
6. McShea, Daniel W., 1998. Possible largest-scale trends in organismal evolution: eight live hypotheses. Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics 29: 293-318.
7. Schneider, Eric D. and James J. Kay, 1994. Life as a manifestation of the second law of thermodynamics. Mathematical and Computer Modelling 19(6-8): 25-48. http://www.fes.uwaterloo.ca/u/jjkay/pubs/Life_as/lifeas.pdf

Further Reading:

Lambert, Frank L., 1999. The second law of thermodynamics. http://www.secondlaw.com

Atkins, P. W., 1984. The Second Law. New York: Scientific American Books.

Kauffman, Stuart A., 1993. The Origins of Order. New York: Oxford. (technical)
See For Yourself:

You can see order come and go in nature in many different ways. A few examples are snowflakes and other frost crystals, cloud formations, dust devils, ripples in sand dunes, and eddies and whirlpools in streams. See how many other examples you can find.

Source: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001.html

 

[HRE]

Without such ailments, no Dr's would work, no pharmacists would look for drugs, no son would care for a dying mother, or a father shsow his love for a daughter that fractured her little finger. It's all about God's love somehow, when we really look for it.

Yes, yes, yes -- and shame on those scientists for doing their damndest to eliminate that love, right?

You are seriously twisted -- or perhaps simply brainwashed. Which will you take?

 

[Hydra009]

Does this refutation of ID refute an intelligent creator? I think not necissarily.

Of course not. I knew this kind of thing would happen, many people on this thread seem to be taking arguments against ID as arguments against theism. It's important for everyone on this thread to realize the distinction.

 

[NamesAreHardToPick]

Poor Design =/= Atheism or Agnosticism
Evolution =/= Atheism or Agnosticism

Anyone can have faith that God made each of these with a purpose, evolution or poor design depending on how they look at life. In no way shape or form is someone forced to not believe in a Creator because of these two.

You can be a Christian and an evolutionist and also think there is poor design. I made my choice not to be (based on other issues as well), but that is my own choice. To each their own. And many people can see evolution or poor design and see a Creator.

 

[warispeace]

True that things in the immune system or the body can go wrong. But don't you think that this too may be part of the master plan and great design, so that life goes on. Without such ailments, no Dr's would work, no pharmacists would look for drugs, no son would care for a dying mother, or a father shsow his love for a daughter that fractured her little finger. It's all about God's love somehow, when we really look for it.

And don't forget-- without violent crime cops and jail wardens would be out of a job and mob bosses would be living on the streets. Without drug addiction dealers wouldn't be able to afford sports cars... Without human suffering pharmaceutical companies would go bankrupt... God, what a horrible world to live in.

 

[JohnR7]

It says heat will not spontaneously flow from a colder body to a warmer one

That's nice, now can you tell me how to lower my gas bill, I am trying to figure out a way to keep the warm air in and the cold air out.

 

[Split Rock]

You guys forgot the appendix, which is apparently intelligently designed to burst and send colonies of bacteria into the GI system so we can die a horrible and painful death by mass infection.

 

[Randall McNally]

What about the male reproductive system, which has to share space and equipment with parts of the excretory system?

Or certain parts of the male reproductive system that have to be kept at a slightly lower temperature than the rest of the body, in a location ill-suited for bike-riding or being kicked...

 

[Hydra009]

You guys forgot the appendix, which is apparently intelligently designed to burst and send colonies of bacteria into the GI system so we can die a horrible and painful death by mass infection.

That's right. I guess we can also add all kinds of genetic disorders to the list. Perfectly designed my behind.

 

[Mistermystery]

since your a scientist, you would certainly know that the Second Law of Thermodynamics says that everything is to go RANDOM.

*coughs* I direct you to the sig.

 

[Jet Black]

since your a scientist, you would certainly know that the Second Law of Thermodynamics says that everything is to go RANDOM.

the 2nd law is in my signature. since you are so familiar with it, please detail which step of the evolutionary process violates that rule.

 

[Kripost]

Strange... I would expect someone attribute the flaws to the Fall.

 

[Ataradrac]

without this part of the skeletal system, your internal vital organs, e.g. liver, heart, would be easy to attack from the back. So it was the Master Creator God's love for us to design it. Yet, we complain and question why it is that weak.

Horses, dogs and alligators also have backs and ribs that protect their internal organs from injury, yet they don't suffer from the same weaknesses of their spinal columns.

(Then again, horses are prone to leg injuries that can be life-threatening, so even they have problems.)

 

[NamesAreHardToPick]

Strange... I would expect someone attribute the flaws to the Fall.

1. There is no evidence that humans were ever made perfect, like Creationist make it sound like.
2. There is no evidence of a "fall" other than the Bible or religious texts that are full of other countless errors.
3. The "Fall" is a theological argument, not a scientific one. If a Creationist uses the argument, they have left the realm of science and entered theology, proving that there is no such thing as 'Creation Science.'
4. Poor design refutes the claim of intelligent design and shows that there is good design and bad design, which are both explanable from an evolutionary perspective - which is scientific, however, no scientific explanation can be given by Creationists, rather a theological argument.

 

[JohnR7]

The immune system seems well designed at first, but isn't. Overgrowth, cancer, the B-cells and such are examples of poor design.

They are not poor design, they are signs that we live in a world that has fallen away from God origional plan and purpose. But there is good news, God does have a plan of redemption and restoration for who so ever is willing.

Rev. 21:4
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

 

[NamesAreHardToPick]

They are not poor design, they are signs that we live in a world that has fallen away from God origional plan and purpose. But there is good news, God does have a plan of redemption and restoration for who so ever is willing.

Rev. 21:4
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

Oh the beloved Heaven card!

Prove it.

 

[Hydra009]

Strange... I would expect someone attribute the flaws to the Fall.

That's true. The Fall is sort of the catch-all explaination for imperfection. But you see, IDists argue that the human body and the body systems of other organisms are perfectly designed the way they are right now. Creationists (not to be confused with IDists ) argue that the human body and the body systems of other organisms are prefectly designed, but the Fall is responsible for the imperfections we see today.

 

[brightlights]

I still can't dance.