• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Polygenist Creation Models

Status
Not open for further replies.

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
- That races were created seperately by God, and that they were not the product of mutation or evolution. And i have given the basic evidences for this - which so far have not been refuted.

There is no Biblical basis for a statement like that. The Scriptures are clear that we have all descended from Adam which would explain the genealogy as a part of the historical narrative. I don't know where you get your ideas but it's not from the Bible and comes from no Christian tradition, doctrine or ideology that I have ever seen or heard of.
 
Upvote 0

Research2

Find my research threads in Unorthodox Theology
Mar 22, 2011
226
1
England
✟362.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
There is no Biblical basis for a statement like that.

Actually there is, starting from Genesis 5: 1 - ''This [is] the book of the generations of Adam'', you see the Bible only deals with one race who descended from Adam - the Adamic race.

If you don't think so, then explain how all the races or diverse physical types came from Adam.

The Scriptures are clear that we have all descended from Adam

Really? Where does it say that?

Find me where the scripture says eskimos, australian aborignes, sub-saharan africans, japanese, easter islanders etc all descended from Adam...

This challenge was already posted, but others such as notedstrangeperson failed to answer.

I don't know where you get your ideas but it's not from the Bible and comes from no Christian tradition, doctrine or ideology that I have ever seen or heard of.

Polygenism as a theory has been around for thousands of years.
 
Upvote 0

Notedstrangeperson

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2008
3,430
110
36
✟19,524.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Research2 said:
The article debunks the claim races are 99.9% identical, when recent genetic research has concluded a far wider gap in percentage between the different races proving we are far less related than commonly believed. This is only a problem for monogenism.

Forgive me if I sound patronising but do you understand what genetic variation means? It doesn't always imply we are not related - quite the opposite.

Research2 said:
You have come to this thread making wild claims, you have never supported. So for the tenth time, i ask for your evidence that races evolved and that climate produced the physical variations. So far you have not backed up one of your claims, and all you are doing is picking holes in my beliefs, instead of presenting anything of your own - typically what evolutionists/atheists do. Its easy to sit behind your keyboard just attacking others isn't it?

It's difficult to understand what you consider evidence - first you claim (here or on a different thread) that DNA does not mean anything. Then you provide a link pointing out the percentage of genetic differences between the races, and take this as evidence that we are not related.

If DNA is irrelevent then it doesn't matter how genetically identical we are - the races would be unrelated whether we shared 12%, 60% or 98% of our genes.
If DNA is important evidence then the less genetically identical we are, the less related we are. This depends on what you are measuring however.

On the plus said, you finally got Mark Kennedy and I to agree on something. :thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Research2

Find my research threads in Unorthodox Theology
Mar 22, 2011
226
1
England
✟362.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
- I said DNA can only be interpreted and therefore cannot prove creation or evolution. Hence both creationists and evolutionists use genetics in attempt to prove their model of origins. Neither side can prove their theory because at the end of the day its just mere interpretation.

- Only the evolutionists however confuse interpretation or assumption with science, hence macroevolution has never been observed or tested but evolutionists bizarrely continue to consider it as scientific.

- I didn't bring genetics into this thread, you did - however this backfired on you when i posted a link which proves the races have far more difference in genes than at first believed, therefore adding weight to polygenism, not monogenism.
 
Upvote 0

Notedstrangeperson

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2008
3,430
110
36
✟19,524.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Research2 said:
I said DNA can only be interpreted and therefore cannot prove creation or evolution. Hence both creationists and evolutionists use genetics in attempt to prove their model of origins. Neither side can prove their theory because at the end of the day its just mere interpretation.

There are several sciences dedicated to the study of genetics, including the ability to trace heritage (from a few generations to millions of years), their functional differences, natural selection versus random drift etc.

Genetics is far more than interpretation - it is solid evidence.

Research2 said:
I didn't bring genetics into this thread, you did - however this backfired on you when i posted a link which proves the races have far more difference in genes than at first believed, therefore adding weight to polygenism, not monogenism.

You're not going to resort to blindly repeating yourself (again) are you? I'll write it again - genetic variation does not imply we are not related.
Genetic Variation
1. Variation of genomes between members of species, or between groups of species thriving in different parts of the world as a result of genetic mutation.
2. Genetic diversity in a population or species as a result of new gene combinations.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
All your points were adressed, but you never answered the following:

- Where is the evidence Christianity is a universal religion?

While I'm interested in addressing the issues you raised I have no idea what you mean by 'universal religion'.

- Where are the eskimos, polynesians, japanese etc in scripture?

Thus also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul; the last Adam a quickening spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45)​

Barnes has an interesting insight into Paul's paraphrase from the LXX:

The first man Adam was made a living soul - This is quoted exactly from the translation by the Septuagint, except that the apostle has added the words "first" and "Adam." This is done to designate whom he meant. The meaning of the phrase "was made a living soul" (ἐγένετο εις ψυκὴν ζωσαν egeneto eis psuchēn zōsan - in Hebrew, נפשׁ חיה nephesh chayaah is, became a living, animated being; a being endowed with life. The use of the word "soul" in our translation, for ψυχὴ psuchē, and נפשׁ nephesh, does not quite convey the idea. We apply the word "soul," usually, to the intelligent and the immortal part of man; that which reasons, thinks, remembers, is conscious, is responsible, etc.​

From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. (Acts 17:26)​

Genetic alleles are related to geographic location. While science has not defined race as independent lineages they seem to be able to trace it back to geographic regions. Never the less, we are all one blood because we all descended from one man, the Scriptures are explicit on this point.

- Why are the Libyans fair skinned, despite the fact living in a hot environment for thousands of years?

They are olive skinned like others from the Middle East, northern Africa and the Mediterranean basin of Europe. The traits expressed exist in all of us, the genes of other 'races' (more accurately described as dems) are external traits. You seem uninterested in how this works on a molecular level but Mendelian dominant/recessive genetics and gene expression are more then adequate to explain these differences within the human family.

You also failed to provide evidence for your beliefs that:

-Climate mutates people, or changes their permanance.

If you want better answers I suggest you ask better questions. While I don't care much for philosophical Darwinism many of the evolutionists are well versed in the genetic basis for developmental adaptation. Mutations is a term that can include but is not limited to alterations in the amino acid sequence of protein coding genes. There is gene expression, recessive and dominant traits, mechanisms that turn genes on and off and other molecular mechanisms characterized and continually being updated and expanded in modern genetics.

-Natural selection/evolution created the races.

Natural selection explains the survival of the fittest not the arrival of the fittest. For that you need a molecular mechanism.
-Individuals somehow suddenly morph or can change their appearance by nature.

It's not sudden but may well happen within a couple of generations. In order for traits to become fixed is a complicated but fascinating process. If you get tired of swimming on the surface I suggest you learn more about the functional aspects of molecular mechanisms designed for that purpose.

- Many others, i can't be bothered to list.

So be it.

You also have claimed the 'essentialist concept' has been rejected by scientists (despite the fact thousands of forensic scientists still use it), so you need to back up your wild cranky claims in this thread with sources.

Essentialist thinking is epistemology, not functional genomics:

Genetic essentialism is dependent upon one particular belief fundamental to western culture. This is the belief that understanding can be gained by reducing an object of knowledge to its ‘essence’. A belief in the existence of a true essence, a core of Truth, permeates all of our intellectual traditions, including our search for self-knowledge. We build our construction of identity, our ‘true selves’ on an essentialist premise. Thus, an essentialist conception of the self is the central organizing principle of psychology and moral philosophy. Genetic Essentialism and the Discursive Subject

Humans are essentially a product of their genes but they are more then the sum of their molecular parts. Man is a living spirit, born in sin and full of flaws and potential. Genes can never determine a persons spiritual well being, I know this because the Great Commission is to take the Gospel to all creatures, making disciples of all nations. This term for nations is the closest Biblical equivalent to what you are calling race and the Scriptures are clear that all nations (races) will bear fruit from the Gospel for the glory of God.

Which brings us to an important point. There is no concept of race in the Scriptures, at least not how you are describing it. The idea expressed would be people, nations, tongues, tribes...etc. While there are various considerations the Biblical concept of mankind, diverse in all it's vast array, is diametrically opposed to the concept of the independent creation of races.

I still stand on my statement that there is no such thing as race. If for some reason you want to define it as divergent traits within the human family I would reconsider that statement. If on the other hand you want to insist on the independent creation of races your on your own. I don't know of a single Christian scholar and certainly no secular scientist who would even entertain such an obviously flawed theory.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Research2

Find my research threads in Unorthodox Theology
Mar 22, 2011
226
1
England
✟362.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
I have no idea what you mean by 'universal religion'.

The idea that Christianity is a religion for everyone.

Thus also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul; the last Adam a quickening spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45)

- Firstly the Greek word for man (ánthrōpos) can be plural, meaning more than one i.e a tribe, group or 'House' or people. For example check Matthew 4: 19 - ''Follow me, and I will make you fishers of people!"

- Secondly you have to read these passages in context of Biblical ethnography and geographical knowledge. The authors of Genesis were isolated and confined to a very small area, they had no knowledge of other races, therefore the only men they knew were of their same stock. In later books of the Bible this geography increased, but never covered the entire Earth.

There are no eskimos, easter islanders, japanese, australian aborigines etc in scripture, the Bible was not written for them but only the Adamic race.

From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. (Acts 17:26)

And those ''all nations'' during Paul's times were only confined to a small territory on the Earth.

Do you really think Paul had knowledge or had traveled to Japan, Australia, the North Pole or Easter Island?

Never the less, we are all one blood because we all descended from one man, the Scriptures are explicit on this point.

This is just your mere interpretation.

Find me the eskimos, sub-saharan africans, japanese etc in scripture if you think the Bible was written for all races.

They are olive skinned like others from the Middle East, northern Africa and the Mediterranean basis of Europe.

No they aren't... the ancient Libyans and their unmixed modern descendants are fair skinned with blonde or red hair - yet for thousands of years have lived in a hot environment which has not effected their skin. Climate has no effect on the permanence of fixed racial features.

It's not sudden but may well happen within a couple of generations. In order for traits to become fixed is a complicated but fascinating process. If you get tired of swimming on the surface I suggest you learn more about the functional aspects of molecular mechanisms designed for that purpose.

Faith statement, this has never been observed...

Humans are essentially a product of their genes but they are more then the sum of their molecular parts. Man is a living spirit, born in sin and full of flaws and potential. Genes can never determine a persons spiritual well being, I know this because the Great Commission is to take the Gospel to all creatures, making disciples of all nations. This term for nations is the closest Biblical equivalent to what you are calling race and the Scriptures are clear that all nations (races) will bear fruit from the Gospel for the glory of God.

Jesus and the disciples were only sent to the House of Israel -

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
- Matthew 15: 24

''Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.''
- Matthew 10: 6

So do you just rip these passages out your Bible or ignore them?

Which brings us to an important point. There is not concept of race in the Scriptures, the idea expressed would be people, nations, tongues, tribes...etc. While there are various considerations the Biblical concept of mankind diverse in all it's vast array is diametrically opposed to the concept of the independent creation of races.

There are physical racial traits described throughout the entire Bible.

I still stand on my statement that there is no such thing as race.

Well science disagrees with you. The only people who deny races exist are liberals with a political agenda.

I don't know of a single Christian scholar and certainly no secular scientist who would even entertain such an obviously flawed theory.

Still waiting for you to explain how the races were created.
 
Upvote 0

Notedstrangeperson

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2008
3,430
110
36
✟19,524.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Research2 said:
Secondly you have to read these passages in context of Biblical ethnography and geographical knowledge. The authors of Genesis were isolated and confined to a very small area, they had no knowledge of other races, therefore the only men they knew were of their same stock. In later books of the Bible this geography increased, but never covered the entire Earth. There are no eskimos, easter islanders, japanese, australian aborigines etc in scripture, the Bible was not written for them but only the Adamic race.

And those ''all nations'' during Paul's times were only confined to a small territory on the Earth.
Do you really think Paul had knowledge or had traveled to Japan, Australia, the North Pole or Easter Island?

To dust off an old argument - the people living in these regions during Biblical times may not have known about Inuits, Aboriginals etc. but God did. As the creator of all that exists, he knew of these people. The Bible is the word of God, not a collection of fables written only by and for people in the Middle-East.

--------
Matthew 28:19-20: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Luke 24:46-47: And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Matthew 25:31-33: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mark 13:9-11: But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
So do you just rip these passages out your Bible or ignore them?' :p
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
The idea that Christianity is a religion for everyone.

While I don't subscribe to universal salvation the message is to whosoever will and as many as the Lord shall call. This isn't my opinion, it's gospel.

- Firstly the Greek word for man (ánthrōpos) can be plural, meaning more than one i.e a tribe, group or 'House' or people. For example check Matthew 4: 19 - ''Follow me, and I will make you fishers of people!"

Yea, ok....

- Secondly you have to read these passages in context of Biblical ethnography and geographical knowledge. The authors of Genesis were isolated and confined to a very small area, they had no knowledge of other races, therefore the only men they knew were of their same stock. In later books of the Bible this geography increased, but never covered the entire Earth.

You have left out one very important source at Sinai, God was speaking to Moses. Genesis is prophetic in the sense that it is direct revelation, the canon of Scripture has at it's source God. The knowledge of geography is irrelevant since the prophets spoke not from earthly source material but were moved by the Holy Spirit.

When seem to have a fundamental difference with regards to divine revelation and the canon of Scripture.

There are no eskimos, easter islanders, japanese, australian aborigines etc in scripture, the Bible was not written for them but only the Adamic race.

They are all descendants of Adam, the Scriptures are explicit in this regard. It is impossible for me to maintain the substance of my beliefs and agree with this statement. What you are saying is not based on a sound exposition of the Scriptures but speculations and supposition that can only be regarded as extra-biblical. This is certainly not a creationist view.

And those ''all nations'' during Paul's times were only confined to a small territory on the Earth.

Notedstrangeperson provided you with direct quotes that contradict that statement in no uncertain terms. How you respond to this correction effects only you.

Do you really think Paul had knowledge or had traveled to Japan, Australia, the North Pole or Easter Island?

No and I don't think he needed it. From what I know of Paul he happily would have but he would have had to stop at every town along the way. That's why he trained ministers and inspired a missionary zeal that has brought the gospel to every part of this globe. Paul's knowledge of geography is irrelevant to a sound exposition of the requisite Scriptures that speak clearly and concisely to human lineage, we are all descendants of Adam and Eve.

This is just your mere interpretation.

That's Luke's, Paul's and the Churches interpretation of Genesis. Even Jesus called the marriage of Adam and Eve the beginning. I'm not pulling this out of my hat and Christian scholarship supports what I'm telling you while your 'interpretation' amounts to nothing more then a dismissal of the testimony of Genesis as ignorance.

Find me the eskimos, sub-saharan africans, japanese etc in scripture if you think the Bible was written for all races.

There is no need, all nations means all nations.

No they aren't... the ancient Libyans and their unmixed modern descendants are fair skinned with blonde or red hair - yet for thousands of years have lived in a hot environment which has not effected their skin. Climate has no effect on the permanence of fixed racial features.

Had they moved further south into equatorial Africa the skin pigmentation would have adapted a darker skin as a physical trait. There are known molecular mechanisms that facilitate this without the need for independent creation.

Faith statement, this has never been observed...

No it's not, the molecular mechanisms and the Mendelian laws of inheritance have been well characterized.

Jesus and the disciples were only sent to the House of Israel -

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
- Matthew 15: 24

''Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.''
- Matthew 10: 6

They were first sent to the house of Israel as Paul was and then to Samaria and finally to the Gentiles. Paul makes an elaborate exposition of how this works in Romans 11 or do you read Paul?

So do you just rip these passages out your Bible or ignore them?

No I read them in the context of literary and historical transition.

He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts 1:7,8)​

Did you rip this out of your Bible?

There are physical racial traits described throughout the entire Bible.

Yea, so...?

Well science disagrees with you. The only people who deny races exist are liberals with a political agenda.

I have the same agenda social activists have pursued for years. I deny that there is anything as race because of the dangers of racist thinking. Since you choose to make an extra-biblical concept the watershed principle I would rather be regarded as a liberal with a political agenda then a false teacher.

Science is what convinced me that the term 'race' does not means independent lineage. I'm a young earth creationist and a Biblical literalist, the concept of the separate lineage of the human race does not exist in natural science or Biblical theism.

What is more science has reduced racial differences to alleles that amount to a fraction of 1% of the human genome. There isn't a dimes worth of difference between the races on a genetic basis and I have studied this extensively.

Still waiting for you to explain how the races were created.

The same way that the originally created kinds were spread across the face of the earth and diverged in all it's vast array. If you are interested in the genetic basis for the divergent traits within the human family simply identify the trait and I'll look it up.

Have a nice day,
Mark
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

theFijian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 30, 2003
8,898
476
West of Scotland
Visit site
✟86,155.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
The only people who reject racial typology and classification are those with a political agenda.

Lol, the only people who ignore arguments and claim a political agenda are those with a political agenda
 
Upvote 0

theFijian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 30, 2003
8,898
476
West of Scotland
Visit site
✟86,155.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
mark kennedy said:
From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. (Acts 17:26)

And those ''all nations'' during Paul's times were only confined to a small territory on the Earth.

Do you really think Paul had knowledge or had traveled to Japan, Australia, the North Pole or Easter Island?

The irony is that Researcher1/2's other pet-hate is immigration (coincidence!) and he believes that non-whites have no place in british society (being just for the descendents of Israel as it is). Normally Acts 17:26 is used by (some) Christians supporting anti-immigration policies but since the Bible was not intended for non-whites they are not bound by imperatives or commands in scripture, hence they are free to move and settle wherever they might wish.
 
Upvote 0

Research2

Find my research threads in Unorthodox Theology
Mar 22, 2011
226
1
England
✟362.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
They are all descendants of Adam, the Scriptures are explicit in this regard.

No it isn't clear. Once again, if you think everyone came from Adam show me where the eskimos, easter islanders etc are in scripture.

It is impossible for me to maintain the substance of my beliefs and agree with this statement. What you are saying is not based on a sound exposition of the Scriptures but speculations and supposition that can only be regarded as extra-biblical. This is certainly not a creationist view.

You think God created everything, but when it comes down to the races accept macro-evolution like Ken Ham... i.e after the Tower of Babel, Ham believes that ''brown skinned'' people suddenly morphed into white and black with all the different racial features. That's macro-evolution in a very short timescale...so much for YEC's opposing evolution because of the time it supposedly takes.

At least my creationist views are coherent.

we are all descendants of Adam and Eve.

Then prove it.

There is no need, all nations means all nations.

In the ancient geographic context.

So Jesus knew of the eskimos and easter Islanders?

Good luck telling a Bible scholar that. You are comedy.

Had they moved further south into equatorial Africa the skin pigmentation would have adapted a darker skin as a physical trait. There are known molecular mechanisms that facilitate this without the need for independent creation.

O right... so you are an evolutionist. You believe skin etc mutates.

They were first sent to the house of Israel as Paul was and then to Samaria and finally to the Gentiles. Paul makes an elaborate exposition of how this works in Romans 11 or do you read Paul?

Show me where scripture says Paul traveled to easter Island, sub-sahara africa, north america, japan etc then.

Paul only traveled to parts of Asia Minor and Europe.

No I read them in the context of literary and historical transition.
He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts 1:7,8)
Did you rip this out of your Bible?

Once again, ancient geographical context. The 'ends of the earth' is a reference to the known mapped geography at the time.

So you think Paul had traveled or had knowledge of Antarctica?

Once again, good luck telling your cranky beliefs to a Bible scholar.

I'm a young earth creationist and a Biblical literalist, the concept of the separate lineage of the human race does not exist in natural science or Biblical theism.

Actually you are an evolutionist, like Ken Ham.

When it comes to race you believe in macroevolution, that suddenly all the races morphed or evolved/mutated into different kinds.
 
Upvote 0

Notedstrangeperson

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2008
3,430
110
36
✟19,524.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Research2 said:
Actually you are an evolutionist, like Ken Ham.

Whoa, calling Mark Kennedy an evolutionist? Like Ken Ham? My suspects about Research2 being a troll are rising again. It's OK, Notedstrangeperson is a troll, theFijian is a troll, Kiwimac is a troll ... Gee, there are an awful lot of them on CF.

---------------

Let's put the racial argument in reverse. Correct me if I've made any mistakes:

- Agument from geography: The writers of the Bible only knew of a small section of the world (The Middle East, most of Europe and the top of Africa). Some, including myself, argue this does not matter as the Bible is the word of God, not the word of man. Research2 argues that this is an indication the bible was not intended to be written for non-white people.
He has also argued that regions where Caucasians are native to (Europe, the Mediterraean, Scandinavia, the British Isles) are mentioned in the Bible, based on a the idea that they are islands, have volcanic activity and are north of Israel. These arguments are incorrect.

- Argument from biology: Nobody has observed one race changing into another. Others, again including myself, argue that this is observable as it can be seen within a single family. Individuals cannot change their race but populations can. There is also genetic evidence showing variations which result in differences in appearance. Research2 argues that this genetic variation and inability for Negroes to magically turn into Caucasians is proof that the races are unrelated.

- Argument from theology. God is only concerned with the Caucasian or 'Adamite' race. This only makes sense if the races are unrelated and during biblical times did not know of each other, based on the above two ideas. Both of these arguments are incorrect.

- Argument from history. How do we know the 'Adamite' race were Caucasian? Because in Hebrew the name "Adam" means "to be red". Caucasian skin is pale enough to show blood when they blush, therefore Adam's ability to blush (presumably the moment he realized he was naked) makes him Caucasian. However Research2 posted this argument a while ago so I don't know if he still uses it.

Very few of the arguments used to support polygenism make sense, either from a religious or scientific perspective.
 
Upvote 0

Research2

Find my research threads in Unorthodox Theology
Mar 22, 2011
226
1
England
✟362.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Whoa, calling Mark Kennedy an evolutionist? Like Ken Ham?

- He believes in universal common descent between all animals.
- He believes the races evolved or mutated.
- He believes in macroevolution in regards to race.

These three points make Mark an evolutionist.

For the first point, check the other thread where Mark made it clear that he believes all animals share some kind of common linage, which is a main tenet of the theory of evolution. In this thread he has also made it clear he believes the races evolved or mutated.

My suspects about Research2 being a troll are rising again. It's OK, Notedstrangeperson is a troll, theFijian is a troll, Kiwimac is a troll ... Gee, there are an awful lot of them on CF.

No, just you three are trolls. I have no problem with anyone else.

Kimimac and theFijian followed me from the politics thread just to troll me because i hold political views they don't agree with (hence they just posted one comment and left), while you have just trolled out this thread with personal attacks, smears and lies + false misrepresentation of my views. Hence most your posts are reported, and you are back on ignore.

I don't accept trolls falsely representing my views, it the same as me posting that you notedstrangeperson are child molester, how would you feel if i posted that every 5 minutes?

Think before you post here.
 
Upvote 0

Notedstrangeperson

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2008
3,430
110
36
✟19,524.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Research2 said:
- He believes in universal common descent between all animals.
- He believes the races evolved or mutated.
- He believes in macroevolution in regards to race.

These three points make Mark an evolutionist.

I don't think Mark supports macroevolution (common descent betwen all animals). He might support microevolution but you'll have to ask him that personally. There is a difference between micro- and macroevolution. Breed differences between dogs and racial differences between humans are both examples of microevolution.

Research2 said:
I don't accept trolls falsely representing my views, it the same as me posting that you notedstrangeperson are child molester, how would you feel if i posted that every 5 minutes?

Very well, I outlined what I thought your arguments were in my previous comment. Which ones did I get wrong?
 
Upvote 0

Research2

Find my research threads in Unorthodox Theology
Mar 22, 2011
226
1
England
✟362.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
- You have claimed i am a white supremacist, racist, or believe non-white people have no souls or cannot be saved.

All of these are lies and false misrepresentation of my views.

- The thread was merely to discuss polygenist creationism i.e the idea that God created the races seperately.

Such a shame you can't discuss the origin of race in modern times without attracting liberals, trolls and other wierdos who come here accusing others being racist or 'white supremacists'. Insecurity?
 
Upvote 0

Notedstrangeperson

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2008
3,430
110
36
✟19,524.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Research2 said:
You have claimed i am a white supremacist, racist, or believe non-white people have no souls or cannot be saved.

All of these are lies and false misrepresentation of my views.

Ah - well that was the impression I got. The parts about Caucasians being the only descendants of Adam (hence the term 'Adamites') and the remark about God literally being a white man gave me this idea.

You also mentioned on another thread that you thought non-whites were evolved from hominids or ape-like beings (such as the comment about Aboriginal skull shapes here) while Caucasians were made directly in the image of God.

On yet another thread - most of the user's comments have now been deleted - you mentioned that Christianity is for Caucasians only. This to me is a theistic version of white supremacy.

But this opens up a whole new line of questions:

- Do you think non-whites have souls?
- Can they achieve salvation through Jesus?
- If so, how? They are not Adamites, the writers of the Bible had no knowledge of aboriginals or Native Americans or Inuits or sub-Saharan Africans ...
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
...Notedstrangeperson is a troll, theFijian is a troll, Kiwimac
No, just you three [are trolls. I have no problem with anyone else...

Just a quick look shows that you not only called me a troll [which I thought well to ask if that is what you are, and I have never called anyone a troll, here or anywhere else, except to ask if you are since you call everyone else who does not agree with you a troll. You even tagged a thread with "ignore all trolls: yeshuasavedme is a poe" (whatever that is)]; but you have called hespera a troll, and sheena a troll, besides the three above.
It seems that you have a problem of not being able to be challenged in your beliefs as not biblical, and call everyone who does not agree with you "a troll". This is six you have called "trolls", from an easy search, and since you are quite a "newbie" [at least in this name], then there are no doubt a bit more, already, as it is just your pattern of slamming those who do not agree with you by calling them a "troll".
 
Upvote 0

Research2

Find my research threads in Unorthodox Theology
Mar 22, 2011
226
1
England
✟362.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Just a quick look shows that you not only called me a troll [which I thought well to ask if that is what you are, and I have never called anyone a troll, here or anywhere else, except to ask if you are since you call everyone else who does not agree with you a troll. You even tagged a thread with "ignore all trolls: yeshuasavedme is a poe" (whatever that is)]; but you have called hespera a troll, and sheena a troll, besides the three above.
It seems that you have a problem of not being able to be challenged in your beliefs as not biblical, and call everyone who does not agree with you "a troll". This is six you have called "trolls", from an easy search, and since you are quite a "newbie" [at least in this name], then there are no doubt a bit more, already, as it is just your pattern of slamming those who do not agree with you by calling them a "troll".

I never called you a troll, i called you a poe. Two different things.

In the other thread you claimed that the Neo-Babylonian Empire of Nebuckadnezzar II stretched to the Americas (based on a passage in the Book of Daniel) which revealed you were a poe and mocking the Bible.

When you reported my post when i called you a poe, a mod then private messaged me. They didn't take action against me because they also suspected you are a poe mocking the Bible (based on what you posted), but just told me to ignore you.

A poe by the way is someone who is pretending to be a Christian fundie (mostly atheists do it to parody or mock the Bible).

Hespera i only blocked and called a troll because their ban (as i helped with the mods) was on another forum - www.evolutionaryfairytale.com, quite a while back. Hespera is a flamer who just joins creation or evolution debates to insult creationists. They didn't last more than 1 week at evolutionfairytale.com for their abusive posts, yet they keep rejoining under names there to further attack creationists.

Anyone who sits behind their keyboard just attacking others or spreading hate or lies about others - i block. Hence notedstrangeperson and thefijian i had to end up blocking because all they continued to do was falsely represent my views, just to frustrate me or wind me up. They failed though, as it doesn't anger me, it just takes 5 second to block trolls...
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.