Polygamy and divorce

[mercyfollowsme]

Just a wider, more philosophical question about these 2 things. Although polygamy isnt widely practised today, but is Biblically accepted as non-sinful, and even as a gift (2 sam 2) from God. And given that divorce is only sinful as the break up of a God given union, except where there has been immorality. Doesnt this case of divorce allowable after immorality imply that polygamy isnt immoral?

Could polygamy be a way for people to remain "married", but separated, but to have another partner?

 

[SeventyOne]

Could polygamy be a way for people to remain "married", but separated, but to have another partner?

Just a thought, but is the assumption here just one man and multiple women?

Seems to be fair you would need to allow both to have multiple spouses. For example, a man would be able to be allowed to have 3 wives, and each wife 3 husbands. Perhaps multiple women share the same multiple husbands. Really, at what point would it become immoral, if the line isn't drawn at more than one? One hundred spouses each perhaps. One thousand?

I can see all kinds of applications for this. "Adult" movie stars all married to each other, can't play the morality card then, or perhaps a prostitute and her john getting married quickly before the act. After all, there's no law against giving money to your spouse.

Of course, now that you can marry within your own gender, wives of the same husband also married, or even husbands of the same wife. Can you imagine the alimony and custody nightmares?

 

[mercyfollowsme]

Just a thought, but is the assumption here just one man and multiple women?

Seems to be fair you would need to allow both to have multiple spouses. For example, a man would be able to be allowed to have 3 wives, and each wife 3 husbands. Perhaps multiple women share the same multiple husbands. Really, at what point would it become immoral, if the line isn't drawn at more than one? One hundred spouses each perhaps. One thousand?

I can see all kinds of applications for this. "Adult" movie stars all married to each other, can't play the morality card then, or perhaps a prostitute and her john getting married quickly before the act. After all, there's no law against giving money to your spouse.

Of course, now that you can marry within your own gender, wives of the same husband also married, or even husbands of the same wife. Can you imagine the alimony and custody nightmares?

I don't think we have any Biblical example like you're saying, and I think there are limits since homosexual relations are forbidden. So, no it's not fair, but a lot of things don't seem fair as well, like the apparent one way divorce.

 

[Greg J.]

Evaluating whether a particular action by a person is a sin or not requires knowing their heart. We are stuck with just a person's actions, so we based our understanding on their heart based on that.

When you're in a culture where cast off women starve to death or need to habitually sin to survive, it is possible for the evil in the culture to create a situation where the only solutions are sinful. I think of the position it puts a person in as a "pit" of sin, which God does not just pull someone out of (for good reasons). They have to fight their way out with God's help.

God usually does not rebuke an individual when they take a path based on good principles, even though it is sinful. Sometimes how pleasing to God they have been living affects his temperament with this. I am not aware of anywhere in Scripture where God says polygamy or slavery is good. What I see is him dealing with situations that people made for themselves, but that no individual can fix. What he does is command people how to live, which would change the culture if obeyed.

 

[SeventyOne]

I don't think we have any Biblical example like you're saying, and I think there are limits since homosexual relations are forbidden. So, no it's not fair, but a lot of things don't seem fair as well, like the apparent one way divorce.

I don't think the world cares about Biblical examples. Open that door and and it will be perverted and abused before you can say, "Oops, we royally screwed up."

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Polygamy is forbidden by Holy Tradition.

 

[mercyfollowsme]

Polygamy is forbidden by Holy Tradition.

1) it's not holy tradition, this requires circular logic
2) it's man made rule
3) ask a Mormon about their "tradition"

 

[mercyfollowsme]

I don't think the world cares about Biblical examples. Open that door and and it will be perverted and abused before you can say, "Oops, we royally screwed up."

Doesn't the Bible actually matter?

 

[mercyfollowsme]

Evaluating whether a particular action by a person is a sin or not requires knowing their heart. We are stuck with just a person's actions, so we based our understanding on their heart based on that.

When you're in a culture where cast off women starve to death or need to habitually sin to survive, it is possible for the evil in the culture to create a situation where the only solutions are sinful. I think of the position it puts a person in as a "pit" of sin, which God does not just pull someone out of (for good reasons). They have to fight their way out with God's help.

God usually does not rebuke an individual when they take a path based on good principles, even though it is sinful. Sometimes how pleasing to God they have been living affects his temperament with this. I am not aware of anywhere in Scripture where God says polygamy or slavery is good. What I see is him dealing with situations that people made for themselves, but that no individual can fix. What he does is command people how to live, which would change the culture if obeyed.

Only God is good, the question is about least evil

 

[mmksparbud]

1Ti_3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti_3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
Tit_1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

 

[Mudinyeri]

1Ti_3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti_3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
Tit_1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

Here we have the standard for deacons/bishops. What about the rest of us?

I'm not exactly sure I understand Constantine's meaning of "Holy Tradition" but it seems to me that some of the holiest men in the Bible, e.g. David and Solomon, had multiple wives. (Is that what is meant by 'Holy Tradition'?)

Monogamy among homo sapiens is a relatively new concept in terms of human history and isn't really dealt with in the Bible with the exception of the requirement for deacons mentioned above.

Someone may jump in with the whole "soul ties" philosophy but I've never found a scriptural basis for this either.

 

[Greg J.]

Just a wider, more philosophical question about these 2 things. Although polygamy isnt widely practised today, but is Biblically accepted as non-sinful, and even as a gift (2 sam 2) from God. And given that divorce is only sinful as the break up of a God given union, except where there has been immorality. Doesnt this case of divorce allowable after immorality imply that polygamy isnt immoral?

Could polygamy be a way for people to remain "married", but separated, but to have another partner?

Only God is good, the question is about least evil

Let me be more clear than my previous post. Having at most one wife is what Scripture shows us over and over is what God wants (Adam & Eve, Jesus' and Paul's discussions of marriage, and others). There is nothing in Scripture to indicate that having more wives is God's first desire. Scripture shows God accepting our behavior by his grace, like he tolerated Samson's sinful behavior. Polygamy in ancient times was one way God used to save lives, as was slavery. Obeying his commands would have brought people out of both of those cultural practices.

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. (Genesis 2:24, 1984 NIV)

 

[mmksparbud]

Here we have the standard for deacons/bishops. What about the rest of us?

That is where bishops, deacons come from.

 

[Mudinyeri]

That is where bishops, deacons come from.

Not ALL of us - only those who meet the criteria.

 

[mmksparbud]

God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Eve and Mary and Cathy and Sally----
It was the original plan to have only one wife.
Gen_2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

It's a little hard to be one flesh with more than one wife. It wasn't until Lamech that more than one wife is mentioned.
Gen 4:19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.

Noah had only one wife, so did his sons. Abraham had one, when Sarah had him take the bond woman to have a child it was because she and him both lacked faith---and the heartache of that decision is still being felt today.
Where there was more than one wife, there were problems. The High priest had to marry a virgin and more than one wife was discouraged.


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/558598/jewish/Does-Jewish-law-forbid-polygamy.htm

A close reading, however, reveals that in virtually all cases where our forefathers took multiple wives, it was for a specific reason. Abraham married Hagar only after Sarah suggested that he do so because she and Abraham had no children together. Another classic example is Jacob. He married Leah only because he was tricked into it by Laban. Similarly, he took Bilhah and Zilpah at the advice of his first two wives, who wished to bear children through them.

Yet the Torah does not outlaw polygamy.
As far as Jewish thought is concerned, it would seem that polygamy is not, and never was, an ideal state. The mystical works are replete with references to husband and wife being two halves of one whole. Interestingly, I’ve never encountered an episode in the Talmud or Midrash—which predate Rabbi Gershom’s ban on polygamy—which involves a polygamous family. While it is certainly possible that such stories do exist, it is quite apparent that polygamy was never the norm.

Practically speaking as well, polygamy is a big financial strain, as the husband is required to provide for all the needs of, as well as separate housing for, two households.

In all probability, polygamy was always considered a last-resort option for men who were married to barren women and who wished to have children without divorcing the wives they loved. Monarchs also routinely used polygamy to cement relationships with different tribal factions and families.

 

[Mudinyeri]

... it would seem that polygamy is not, and never was, an ideal state.

I don't know that anyone is "arguing" this point. I think the original question was more along the lines of, "Is polygamy less sinful than divorce?"

As far as I know, there is no specific condemnation of polygamy in the Bible (not just the Torah). Yet, we see divorce condemned numerous times.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

1) it's not holy tradition, this requires circular logic
2) it's man made rule
3) ask a Mormon about their "tradition"

Holy Tradition is tradition that comes directly from Christ. I wouldn't ask a Mormon about their traditions anymore than I'd be interested in the Book of Mormon.

 

[mercyfollowsme]

Not ALL of us - only those who meet the criteria.

the exception proves the rule. otherwise it would have said we should all have one husband/wife.

 

[mercyfollowsme]

Holy Tradition is tradition that comes directly from Christ. I wouldn't ask a Mormon about their traditions anymore than I'd be interested in the Book of Mormon.

You can see the dilemma though, i have to accept your traditions as holy to accept your traditions as holy.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

the exception proves the rule. otherwise it would have said we should all have one husband/wife.

It was said as such in Holy Tradition.

Are you saying it's okay for a woman to be living with, and having sexual relations with, six men?