Polygamous-sect children ordered to stay in Texas custody

Nadiine · Apr 24, 2008

comana said:
A community with families that endorsed polygamous marriages to underage girls. If they were taking up these relationships with only legally consenting girls this would be a different situation.

Since this is an isolated and uncoopertaing community it is a bit difficult to evaulate the safety of the children while still in the compound.

this is my biggest worry -- I think what helped promote their drastic decision was all the latest issues w/ that Warren Jeffs case who was convicted of forcing marriages of underage girls.

I'm sorry but the risks are just high for underage girls to be abused in these types of lifestyles. This is why I have such a hard time deciding if it's so wrong to take this drastic measure; they already have a history of chronic abuse of young girls that is documented by those who have come out of that community.

I'd be afraid for their safety in all honesty. What if they can't speak out? How do young girls get out of such a compound/cult community??? they really can't.
This would at least be a means for some to speak out & get help IF it's going on. It's a fine line, but if I were one of those girls that did need to be rescued, I'd thank them for raiding the place & taking me to safety.

I dunno ---- hind sight will have to be the judge on this if it was wrong or not.

wanderingone · Apr 24, 2008

I believe people are abused in polygamous communities such as the FLDS, however I don't believe the child neglect/abuse approach to necessarily be the way to approach the issue unless there are clear indicators of individual abuse of minors. These large scale removals tend to generate sympathy at least for the women who have their children taken, and scare those who might have sought help individually into believing the "everyone is out to get us" mentality of the community. If I was a young woman who knew nothing else.. and did kind of want "out" of the community.. who discovered that the outside world contained authorities who could control me the same way the church did inside my community I might choose the devil I know over the one I don't.

If the workers on this case acted in reaction to what they actually found, as opposed to what they believed might be happening then they had no choice.. but if their actions were expedited by prejudices against the community it will just blow up in their faces and turn potential allies against the authorities.

Ginny · Apr 24, 2008

To the other poster, no, I don't know why people keep comparing this compound to a small town.

Surprisingly, no one has commented on this yet.

Wanderingone, good post; however, whether there is true sexual/abuse or not, I feel it is good that an investigation is going on...especially so with those that could be sexually active with a man over twice their age and under the age of 18.

Caitlin.ann · Apr 24, 2008

Ginny said:
To the other poster, no, I don't know why people keep comparing this compound to a small town.

Surprisingly, no one has commented on this yet.

Wanderingone, good post; however, whether there is true sexual/abuse or not, I feel it is good that an investigation is going on...especially so with those that could be sexually active with a man over twice their age and under the age of 18.

They know the call was a hoax, but they didn't at the time they entered the compound. However, they did find reasonable cause to suspect child abuse upon entering the compound.

wanderingone · Apr 24, 2008

bill16652 said:
Why is noone debating the individual rights of the children and the parents? How would you like it if someone said (small town of your choice) that child abuse was going on and they emptied the town of all the women and children to sort it out rather than investigate individual cases as they should do. This is a trampling of individual freedoms and rights and if Texas is allowed to get away with it and you support then dont holler when it spreads and other government agencies decide that they can trample our rights as well

1- This administration is already having a field day with our rights

2- The families in this compound failed to help themselves by refusing to identify family ties, making the authorities more suspicious.

3-Child welfare services already have the authority to remove 1 or more children from individual households while things are "sorted out" when abuse or neglect is suspected.. and if 10 families on my block were accused of passing children around for marriage or sex, of forcing them into marriage the state would come in and investigate and possibly remove children from all the homes involved.

Ginny · Apr 24, 2008

How soon we forget that these people are not even being cooperative in answering questions. I don't know the details, but I would assume honesty would be a big deal in the "compound", especially if that meant trying to speed up this whole issue.

psalms 91 · Apr 24, 2008

comana said:
A community with families that endorsed polygamous marriages to underage girls. If they were taking up these relationships with only legally consenting girls this would be a different situation.

Since this is an isolated and uncoopertaing community it is a bit difficult to evaulate the safety of the children while still in the compound.

Interesting, I believe the Homeland Security Act uses the same reasoning, you know where they can hold people and not charge them, listen in on phone calls and your e mails, check up on your computer usage. Do you get the idea that what may be unpopular group of society still need their rights protected or we will all lose them?

psalms 91 · Apr 24, 2008

wanderingone said:
1- This administration is already having a field day with our rights

2- The families in this compound failed to help themselves by refusing to identify family ties, making the authorities more suspicious.

3-Child welfare services already have the authority to remove 1 or more children from individual households while things are "sorted out" when abuse or neglect is suspected.. and if 10 families on my block were accused of passing children around for marriage or sex, of forcing them into marriage the state would come in and investigate and possibly remove children from all the homes involved.

Authority to remove from individual households, does it not make you indignant that a whole community was removed? I am sure they did not have any evidence so widespread as to suggest that everyone is guilty and I am sure that these displaced mothers and children are so much better off mentally now that the great benevolant state has decided wwhat is best for them. 1984 anyone?

Nadiine · Apr 24, 2008

bill16652 said:
Authority to remove from individual households, does it not make you indignant that a whole community was removed? I am sure they did not have any evidence so widespread as to suggest that everyone is guilty and I am sure that these displaced mothers and children are so much better off mentally now that the great benevolant state has decided wwhat is best for them. 1984 anyone?

I'm not clear on every detail of how they came to take these kids.
I will say this tho, the VERY young & infants need to stay with mom for sure. Those kids do need to stay with their mothers, there's no reason to take them until serious proof is found of rape/pedophilia/molestation/ underage marriage etc.

I don't understand why the very little kids (like 6 and under)???
(unless there's no birth record or proper documentation of them ?) but still.??

Caitlin.ann · Apr 24, 2008

Nadiine said:
I'm not clear on every detail of how they came to take these kids.
I will say this tho, the VERY young & infants need to stay with mom for sure. Those kids do need to stay with their mothers, there's no reason to take them until serious proof is found of rape/pedophilia/molestation/ underage marriage etc.

I don't understand why the very little kids (like 6 and under)???

Because in the real world, kids under six are still raped too.

ETA and if not raped then still capable of being abused mentally and physically. None of the kids should have remained with the parents and I'm GLAD the state removed them. Yay Texas!

Nadiine · Apr 24, 2008

sacredsin said:
Because in the real world, kids under six are still raped too.

ETA and if not raped then still capable of being abused mentally and physically. None of the kids should have remained with the parents and I'm GLAD the state removed them. Yay Texas!

at age 6 and under?????????????????

Dear God in heaven help us.

I'm not having fits that they did the WRONG thing -- I just see both sides. But I'll definitely not sit here and act as if they're in a healthy environment when I know what goes on polygamy w/ the young girls -
sorry they're cults and dysfunctional.

What really bothers me is the report I heard that the kids didn't even have last names becuz they didn't know their biological fathers after 'moving around' so much

(sounds like something you'de see on Jerry Springer or Maury Povich shows).
OY

Caitlin.ann · Apr 24, 2008

They don't have birth certificates either unfortunately. My fiance has told me some are beleived to have been trafficked down here from Canada. Anyone have anything to add on that?

Unfortunately even the ones under six are still possibly subject to abuse. One woman on tv who escaped from a similar compound stated they start out young before the children can remember, as in first born. The father would spank the baby and hold it under a water faucet until it didn't have any energy left to cry. Thats how they "broke" them from the start and how they taught the children (especially girls) to fear men.

Nadiine · Apr 24, 2008

sacredsin said:
They don't have birth certificates either unfortunately. My fiance has told me some are beleived to have been trafficked down here from Canada. Anyone have anything to add on that?

Unfortunately even the ones under six are still possibly subject to abuse. One woman on tv who escaped from a similar compound stated they start out young before the children can remember, as in first born. The father would spank the baby and hold it under a water faucet until it didn't have any energy left to cry. Thats how they "broke" them from the start and how they taught the children (especially girls) to fear men.

no doubt I'll "hear it" for this statement, fine.

But I don't doubt at all that people of false gods are alot more capable of committing heinous abuses and having serious perversions in closed environments like this.

I pity kids growing up in this - imo, brainwashing does go on - even if it isn't formalized brainwashing.

Caitlin.ann · Apr 24, 2008

Nadiine said:
no doubt I'll "hear it" for this statement, fine.

Hmm? What did I miss?

But I don't doubt at all that people of false gods are alot more capable of committing heinous abuses and having serious perversions in closed environments like this.

Umm..I'm what Christians consider a follower of "false gods" and I am FAR from likely to commit such atrocities and so are others I know who follow "false gods" so I don't see your point here. Last I heard fundamentalist mormons still worshiped YHWH.

I pity kids growing up in this - imo, brainwashing does go on - even if it isn't formalized brainwashing.

Formalized brainwashing? Its not just brainwashing, its abuse.

Nadiine · Apr 24, 2008

sacredsin said:
Umm..I'm what Christians consider a follower of "false gods" and I am FAR from likely to commit such atrocities and so are others I know who follow "false gods" so I don't see your point here. Last I heard fundamentalist mormons still worshiped YHWH.

Formalized brainwashing? Its not just brainwashing, its abuse.

I think it's both - the brainwashed LET abuse go on and they abuse.

Fundamentalist Mormons & any mormons dont' worship YHWY - not the God of the Bible. If they did, they'de be accepted by Christians AS Christians.

There's an issue of Christian terminology minus the actual definitions as per scripture of who that God actually is.

Caitlin.ann · Apr 24, 2008

Nadiine said:
I think it's both - the brainwashed LET abuse go on and they abuse.

Fundamentalist Mormons & any mormons dont' worship YHWY - not the God of the Bible. If they did, they'de be accepted by Christians AS Christians.

There's an issue of Christian terminology minus the actual definitions as per scripture of who that God actually is.

Go tell them that. They proclaim Elohim.

Nadiine · Apr 24, 2008

sacredsin said:
Go tell them that. They proclaim Elohim.

I DO tell them that if they ever darken my porch =0)~

I know who they say they proclaim - the definition of Him reveals someone else however.

Nadiine · Apr 24, 2008

(but that's going off topic to go into their religion)

Caitlin.ann · Apr 24, 2008

Nadiine said:
(but that's going off topic to go into their religion)

You realize that what makes a Christian was decided long ago by man and I believe "true Christians" are Nicene Christians, correct?

psalms 91 · Apr 24, 2008

This discussion is interesting. What if one of you were the government deciding who was being brainwashed? Do you still want government involving itself in religion or any other area that it jas no legitimate interest in? This is simply a case of hysteria run amuck and not properly handled. Everyone that is not charged should sue the great state of Texas and judicial orders should come down ensureing the rights of every citizen of Texas since the constitution is doing such a poor job

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