Polyamory

[Mling]

I've hooked up with poly women but wouldn't ever date one.

Why not?

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

The first time I ever came across this concept was on this webcomic:

Queen of Wands - Friday, October 14, 2005

Ever since I've been convinced Angela made an excellent case.

(Course it helps I am not raised to think people are evil perverts just because they are different than me, unlike some.)

 

[acropolis]

Why not?

It's bad enough to have to put on a performance and compete to get the attention of single women, I don't want to have to fight a continual battle for the attention of a woman who is trying to balance multiple relationships at once. If we're just going for a ride every now and again I don't mind being just another horse in the stable, but I'm not going to tolerate that arrangement for a serious relationship where I'm going to be placing that person as a major priority in my life, making sacrifices and expending lots of time and energy for them.

 

[Daniel25]

I derive my moral outlook from online fetish comics, and this makes me morally superior to those stupid xtians and their outdated bronze age literature

The World's Biggest Nerd Unboxes Katana - YouTube

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

I recieved my moral outlook from poorly drawn fetish comics which makes me morally superior to those stupid redneck xtians!

If that is how poorly you can read its no wonder there are over 30.000 different interpretations of the bible.

 

[Mling]

It's bad enough to have to put on a performance and compete to get the attention of single women

Why do you need to perform and compete? Why not date somebody who likes the person you are?

I don't want to have to fight a continual battle for the attention of a woman who is trying to balance multiple relationships at once. If we're just going for a ride every now and again I don't mind being just another horse in the stable, but I'm not going to tolerate that arrangement for a serious relationship where I'm going to be placing that person as a major priority in my life, making sacrifices and expending lots of time and energy for them.

You're totally entitled to whatever kind of relationship you want, but you seem to have a skewed idea of what poly entails-- it's not generally a struggle or competition to see who can snatch the most of somebody else's time, and if it gets as unbalanced as you're talking about (you're making sacrifices and treating them as a priority, while they see you as another horse in the stable) that's a serious relationship problem and not what poly is really about. I mean, it happens, I'm sure, but it's as much a flaw as it would be if a monogamous relationship was that unbalanced.

 

[acropolis]

Why do you need to perform and compete? Why not date somebody who likes the person you are?

Men are valuable not mainly for what they are, but for what they do. It's a luxury of women to be able to sit around and let people come to them. For all but the most magnificent men it is necessary to justify your existence constantly. Even just 'being yourself' requires getting someone's attention long enough to see whether or not they like you. If you don't perform you may as well be invisible. Gender roles make life very different for each gender, it's perhaps a bad thing that they exist in such a way, but that's the reality of life, men gotta sing for their dinner.

You're totally entitled to whatever kind of relationship you want, but you seem to have a skewed idea of what poly entails-- it's not generally a struggle or competition to see who can snatch the most of somebody else's time, and if it gets as unbalanced as you're talking about (you're making sacrifices and treating them as a priority, while they see you as another horse in the stable) that's a serious relationship problem and not what poly is really about. I mean, it happens, I'm sure, but it's as much a flaw as it would be if a monogamous relationship was that unbalanced.

If I have a bad day and need some time with my girlfriend I don't want a host of other men to compete with for that same time slot if one or many of them also happen to have had a bad day. I want to occupy a special place on someone's life, not just be another member of a special team and have to be continually reminded that I'm getting only a fraction of what I'm putting in. I feel kinda bad for anyone who thinks they have to settle for table scraps like that, honestly.

 

[GryffinSong]

Men are valuable not mainly for what they are, but for what they do. It's a luxury of women to be able to sit around and let people come to them...

Huh. I must live in a different universe than you do. Women are constantly doing more and more to try to stay attractive and interesting enough to get a man. Why else would they go to the trouble of plastic surgery, wearing of brutally high heels, makeup, etc.? I've always thought the "dating game" was a fakey environment, so I never played in it. I've always TRIED to simply be myself and if a relationship happens, great. If it doesn't, great. If it feels like a competition and like you can't be genuine, why be in that arena? There are women out there who are honest and who can take care of themselves. I've certainly never expected a man to take care of me. I'm a grownup and can take care of myself.

 

[acropolis]

Huh. I must live in a different universe than you do. Women are constantly doing more and more to try to stay attractive and interesting enough to get a man. Why else would they go to the trouble of plastic surgery, wearing of brutally high heels, makeup, etc.? I've always thought the "dating game" was a fakey environment, so I never played in it. I've always TRIED to simply be myself and if a relationship happens, great. If it doesn't, great. If it feels like a competition and like you can't be genuine, why be in that arena? There are women out there who are honest and who can take care of themselves. I've certainly never expected a man to take care of me. I'm a grownup and can take care of myself.

In a sense you do live in a different universe than I, since the gender roles and expectations are very different for women than for men. I live in the deep south of the US, so gender roles are very sharply defined. Men are expected to initiate, always, and if you don't put on that little show and dance, nothing will happen. Not a single woman is going to approach you and ask you out, they're going to sit and wait for you to come to them and prove you're worth their time. This is true for all the men I know in this area. Just being yourself and hoping is all fine and good, but it isn't going to result in anything if you're less than a perfect male specimen. Even if you don't want to admit it, those guys who DO choose to put their best foot forward and make a move are going to get your attention. The ones that don't play the game aren't even noticed, let alone considered. So for you, just letting it happen naturally means rewarding those men who play the game. Gotta play to win, but that doesn't mean it doesn't irritate me, and I'm not about to compound my frustration by continuing to compete against other men within the relationship as well.

 

[Mling]

Men are valuable not mainly for what they are, but for what they do. It's a luxury of women to be able to sit around and let people come to them. For all but the most magnificent men it is necessary to justify your existence constantly. Even just 'being yourself' requires getting someone's attention long enough to see whether or not they like you. If you don't perform you may as well be invisible. Gender roles make life very different for each gender, it's perhaps a bad thing that they exist in such a way, but that's the reality of life, men gotta sing for their dinner.

I'm not sure whether this is more insulting to men or woman. My girlfriend also has a boyfriend, and we're significantly different people, but I don't recall any of us either having to put on an act to get attention, or sitting back and waiting for others to find us attractive (none of us are what you'd call conventionally attractive, and we all have varying degrees of social anxiety/introversion).

I shared something floating through my mind, and she thought it was funny and sexy--she became attracted.

I accidentally hurt and badly upset her, and she both forgave me immediately and worked to quickly overcome the residual fear she felt around me--I admired her strength and kindness, and became attracted.

And...actually, I don't know what happened between her and her boyfriend, since it was before I got involved, but he's not any kind of performer. He's just a genuinely sweet guy who helps people who need it and is very respectful.

Even the most extroverted guy I know isn't "performing." He just is genuinely extroverted and enjoys connecting people to community resources they'd benefit from, which makes him a bit of a hub in local community.

I can't deny your experience, but...I think it might be more of a reflection of your subculture--or even a broader culture-- then of anything inherent to sex or gender.

If I have a bad day and need some time with my girlfriend I don't want a host of other men to compete with for that same time slot if one or many of them also happen to have had a bad day. I want to occupy a special place on someone's life, not just be another member of a special team and have to be continually reminded that I'm getting only a fraction of what I'm putting in. I feel kinda bad for anyone who thinks they have to settle for table scraps like that, honestly.

You seem to be picturing a situation where everybody is scrabbling chaotically for time and attention with everybody else.

But how long does chaotic scrabbling ever last with humans? Coming up with systems of organization is one of the defining features of humanity--we can't stand chaos for long.

Poly is no different--people organize. If I have a bad day, I have first dibs on my girlfriend and everybody knows it. She'd cancel things with other people, or include me in them, if need be.

She and her boyfriend consider each other tertiary partners, even though she doesn't have a secondary partner. They hang out and enjoy each other's company--he'll offer support if she needs it and I'm not around. They care for each other a lot, but, as friend says, "Love is infinite; the hours in the day are not." He has other partners to whom he is more committed, and she is primarily committed to me. But when they each have some spare time, they share it with each other.

A lot of people actually use "primary partner," "secondary partner," "tertiary partner" as titles (we do), but some don't like it, even if they do have their relationships structured that way.

For the record, her boyfriend and I are friends and have never considered each other competition.

 

[acropolis]

I shared something floating through my mind, and she thought it was funny and sexy--she became attracted.

Even the most extroverted guy I know isn't "performing." He just is genuinely extroverted and enjoys connecting people to community resources they'd benefit from, which makes him a bit of a hub in local community.

I can't deny your experience, but...I think it might be more of a reflection of your subculture--or even a broader culture-- then of anything inherent to sex or gender.

I'm using 'performance' in the sociological sense. You performed for that woman and she become attracted to you. Had you performed poorly, nothing would have happened.

The way gender norms work is that women are socially valued mainly for appearance, which is totally passive and doesn't need any action. Men get some points here and there for looking good, but they are required in most cases to initiate whatever happens and to demonstrate their worth, since looks only go so far for hetero guys. Most people are so used to playing their role that they don't realize that it could be any other way for people with different roles. Even if singing for your dinner comes easy, you still have to do it if that's what society expects, or else you'll go hungry.

Of course it isn't inherent in sex, gender norms are socially constructed. But once constructed they are real and have an impact on you, like it or not. In this social setting, and many others, I must, as a man, prove my worth and command attention and respect. Attractive women will get my attention whether they do anything or not, and pretty much regardless of the way they dress, fashion being mostly to compete with other women. Women who aren't attractive at first glance aren't going to be considered. This is a common experience for the men I know in this region.

You seem to be picturing a situation where everybody is scrabbling chaotically for time and attention with everybody else.

But how long does chaotic scrabbling ever last with humans? Coming up with systems of organization is one of the defining features of humanity--we can't stand chaos for long.

A lot of people actually use "primary partner," "secondary partner," "tertiary partner" as titles (we do), but some don't like it, even if they do have their relationships structured that way.

Time is a limited resource, like it or not, and if it comes down to a conflict the more valued person is going to win. If I'm going to commit to the kind of effort and sacrifice needed for a serious relationship I'm not going to settle for being on B Squad. It's varsity or nothing, and I'm not going to tolerate the anxiety of having junior varsity players vying for my slot. You're cool with a hierarchy of lovers, that's super, but I'm not. I have no problem messing around with people who do, but I'm not going to put much effort into them besides that.

edit: And just to be very clear, I'm disagreeing with you that competition isn't a part of it. You choose not to see it that way, but the reality is that those who don't perform well don't get a spot on the team. Everyone has many options for who to date, or who to secondarily date or whatever, and there are real, tangible reasons for selecting one person over another, and those that display more value get chosen over those that don't. In that sense it is always a competition.

 

[GryffinSong]

In a sense you do live in a different universe than I, since the gender roles and expectations are very different for women than for men....So for you, just letting it happen naturally means rewarding those men who play the game...

Yup. Different universes. I hate the dating game. I don't play it. I get to know people as friends. If a man isn't willing to be friends, forget it. Friends first. After awhile, if we seem to find an attraction, one or the other or both will make a move toward something more. Friendship comes from common activities. Group activities like hiking, skiing, or whatever. The few times I attempted the regular dating thing I found it awkward and weird. I'd rather be alone than go through that. Feels like a meat market, and I'm not interested.

But I suppose that's all off topic. I can certainly see how polyamory wouldn't work for you. Quite frankly, I don't think it'd work for me either. Two men would probably be too much for me. And another woman would probably make me jealous. Perhaps if I'd been raised in a different world. I don't know. I think the odds are so low of finding true love that lasts forever with ONE person. The odds of finding it with two or more seems astronomically low.

 

[Verv]

This is hilarious.

The idea that this practice is acceptable and somehow 'understandable' to some people is pretty comical.

It goes against the fundamental urges that we have as humans and I imagine it'll never be widely practiced...

We condemn it because it is bizarre and attempts to lighten the social unity and cohesion that we have as a society.

For the record: I do not believe in democracy & I do not believe that humans have inherent rights that cannot be infringed for the good of society.

 

[Verv]

If that is how poorly you can read its no wonder there are over 30.000 different interpretations of the bible.

If you want to be serious...

The interpretations are really not that different.

Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox... These summarize 95% of the views, and much of their views are very overlapping.

There probably is more radical diversity of interpretation of Karl Marx than there is of the Bible.

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

If you want to be serious...

The interpretations are really not that different.

Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox... These summarize 95% of the views, and much of their views are very overlapping.

There probably is more radical diversity of interpretation of Karl Marx than there is of the Bible.

Well sure NOW that we've had 2000 years of history to slaughter all the christian groups that disagreed too much with the most powerful groups.

But seriously the point was that his reply could only be explained by either a malicious intent to get it as wrong as possible or ignorance of the english language.Between malice and ignorance I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

 

[dies-l]

It is interesting to see how the concept of polyamory is reinterpreted by the OP to pretend that it is about anything other than sex. If a non-Christian chooses to reject monogamy, then they are free to make that choice. As a Christian, it is not my place to expect non-believers to embrace my Christian worldview. However, I think it is fair to ask that people be intellectually honest. What differentiates polyamory from monogamy is sex, nothing more and nothing less.

As a monogamous person, I do believe that my wife owns me or that I own her. I do not feel deprived of meaningful relationships other than my marriage, and I don't believe that she does. We both have very fulfilling relationships with others outside of our marriage. But, we don't have sex with other people.

 

[moonkitty]

In a sense you do live in a different universe than I, since the gender roles and expectations are very different for women than for men. I live in the deep south of the US, so gender roles are very sharply defined. Men are expected to initiate, always, and if you don't put on that little show and dance, nothing will happen. Not a single woman is going to approach you and ask you out, they're going to sit and wait for you to come to them and prove you're worth their time. This is true for all the men I know in this area. Just being yourself and hoping is all fine and good, but it isn't going to result in anything if you're less than a perfect male specimen. Even if you don't want to admit it, those guys who DO choose to put their best foot forward and make a move are going to get your attention. The ones that don't play the game aren't even noticed, let alone considered. So for you, just letting it happen naturally means rewarding those men who play the game. Gotta play to win, but that doesn't mean it doesn't irritate me, and I'm not about to compound my frustration by continuing to compete against other men within the relationship as well.

Oh honey, I live in the deep south too, and don't you think the gender roles are just as confining to women as well. Just like men who put their best foot forward, women have to try and put their best body forward. You say men in the deep south have to approach the woman, he isn't going to approach the the plain jane, he's going to go for the looker. Or if the woman approaches the southern man she likes, half the time he is put off by her forwardness. So she has to get all dolled up and hopes he comes to her. Isn't that just as stupid?

 

[Eudaimonist]

It is interesting to see how the concept of polyamory is reinterpreted by the OP to pretend that it is about anything other than sex. If a non-Christian chooses to reject monogamy, then they are free to make that choice. As a Christian, it is not my place to expect non-believers to embrace my Christian worldview. However, I think it is fair to ask that people be intellectually honest. What differentiates polyamory from monogamy is sex, nothing more and nothing less.

It seems that "intellectually honest" is defined here as "agreeing with dies-l".


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

I hate the dating game. I don't play it. I get to know people as friends. If a man isn't willing to be friends, forget it. Friends first. After awhile, if we seem to find an attraction, one or the other or both will make a move toward something more.

That appears to be how it works in Sweden. There is no "dating culture" as there is in America.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[GryffinSong]

That appears to be how it works in Sweden. There is no "dating culture" as there is in America.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Smart people, those Swedish.