Whatever your stance is - pro Transubstantiation (the bread and wine are actually changed into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ) or not - if the opposite were true, would it change it's meaning?
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Poll: WOuld your view change the meaning of the Lord's supper?
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I'm the only one to vote...yeah!! I changed it once already. 
I went from Zwinglian (sp) to reformed stance.
I went from Zwinglian (sp) to reformed stance.
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ZooMom
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You mean aside from the whole Bread of Life discourse in John?
How about this?
1 Corinthians 10:16
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?
1 Corinthians 11:27
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
Are you aware that saying 'guilty of the body and blood' is the same as saying 'guilty of murder'? Is it possible to sin against bread and wine if they are *not* the Body and Blood of Christ?
Peace be with you!
How about this?
1 Corinthians 10:16
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?
1 Corinthians 11:27
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
Are you aware that saying 'guilty of the body and blood' is the same as saying 'guilty of murder'? Is it possible to sin against bread and wine if they are *not* the Body and Blood of Christ?
Peace be with you!
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Stormy
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Yesterday at 05:54 PM ZooMom said this in Post #7 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=685830#post685830)
Are you aware that saying 'guilty of the body and blood' is the same as saying 'guilty of murder'? Is it possible to sin against bread and wine if they are *not* the Body and Blood of Christ?
Peace be with you!
OK I'll bite.
What are you talking about? What is "guilty of the body and blood"?
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ZooMom
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There's no bait, Stormy. Job had asked for Scripture that supported the idea that the bread and wine became the actual Body and Blood of Christ. The verses I supplied from Corinthians certainly appear to do just that. I am aware, however, that others may view these verses differently.
'Guilty of the body and blood' is a phrase, as I said, that means the same thing as murder. You can't murder symbols, only people. If you sin 'against the body and blood' then you have sinned against an actual person, not an abstract idea or a symbol. In the case of Communion the Body and Blood are Christ's.
Peace be with you.
Job had asked for Scripture that supported the idea that the bread and wine became the actual Body and Blood of Christ. The verses I supplied from Corinthians certainly appear to do just that. I am aware, however, that others may view these verses differently. 'Guilty of the body and blood' is a phrase, as I said, that means the same thing as murder. You can't murder symbols, only people. If you sin 'against the body and blood' then you have sinned against an actual person, not an abstract idea or a symbol. In the case of Communion the Body and Blood are Christ's.
Peace be with you.
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Terri
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Jesus says his words are Spirit.
You have to have The Spirit to understand spiritual things.
Bread and wine is---bread and wine. It is not Jesus!!
JN 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
You have to have The Spirit to understand spiritual things.
Bread and wine is---bread and wine. It is not Jesus!!
JN 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
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ZooMom
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Today at 04:11 PM Terri said this in Post #11 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=687722#post687722)
Jesus says his words are Spirit.
You have to have The Spirit to understand spiritual things.
Bread and wine is---bread and wine. It is not Jesus!!
JN 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
Ok.
Peace be with you.
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Doing it in remembrance is not WHY we do it or what it is, that is the command of HOW to do it - In remembrance of Him. DO not forget the beginning of that statment - as often as you do these things (what things?) Confessing that the bread and cup are the Body and Blood of Christ
- that you do them HOW? In remembrance of him as opposed to out of obligation or habit or compulsion . . .
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OLDoMiNiON
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mmmm, yes, Terri, in here own Huuuge words, i believe is correct.
The Bread and the Wine *represents* what Jesus did for us on the cross. If we take it in *remembrence* of him, and what he did, then we are doing his will. Whether or not it turns into Bleed and Flesh as it travels down your oesophagus, is irrelevant, and i should think we anger the Lord by arguing about it, as we are completely missing the point of the act!
The Bread and the Wine *represents* what Jesus did for us on the cross. If we take it in *remembrence* of him, and what he did, then we are doing his will. Whether or not it turns into Bleed and Flesh as it travels down your oesophagus, is irrelevant, and i should think we anger the Lord by arguing about it, as we are completely missing the point of the act!
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ZooMom
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Ok.
I'm not arguing anything, as this is the Protestant forum. I was merely asked to provide Scripture, which I did. I am unable, by the rules of this forum, to refute your interpretation. But if you would like to move this discussion to a debate forum, I would be more than happy to discuss both sides and interpretations in a civil manner. I will understand if none of you wish to do so, since very often this topic touches some of the most deepseated articles of faith for Christians of both sides and can quickly become a sniping match, rather than a civil discussion.
Peace be with you.
I'm not arguing anything, as this is the Protestant forum. I was merely asked to provide Scripture, which I did. I am unable, by the rules of this forum, to refute your interpretation. But if you would like to move this discussion to a debate forum, I would be more than happy to discuss both sides and interpretations in a civil manner.
I will understand if none of you wish to do so, since very often this topic touches some of the most deepseated articles of faith for Christians of both sides and can quickly become a sniping match, rather than a civil discussion. Peace be with you.
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OLDoMiNiON Terri: do you believe that God is so weak as to have allowed ALL of Christendom to fall into error? Because if you say that - to believe that Jesus Christ is REAL in the Lords Supper/Eucharist - is to be in error - Christendom as a whole was in error for well over half of its existence. Would you be surprised to know that churches which developed in cultural isolation all share the doctrine that Jesus Christ is real in the Eucharist. The Celtic church - the Malabar church of India - Even the Christians that Missionaries were surprised to find in China shared a belief in the Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist!
The heretical sects who threw out 90% of Christian theology such as the Cathars and Albigensian heretics of Mediaeval France who threw out the Incarnation of Christ - KEPT the mass!
The other thing that BAFFLES me is - If the Mass is an error, and the Eucharist a lie (meaning that they belong to Satan and spawned by he) why pray tell is there the BLACK MASS? Scripture clearly states - through the Lords own lips that a house divided cannot stand - when they accused him of casting out devils by a devil. The same can be applied in regards to the Eucharist. If God is not present in the Eucharist rendering it an ungodly and thus Demonic thing - then Satan should be compelling all men to believe in it rather than to reject it even going to far as to perverting it into the Black or Satanic Mass.
If you do not agree with the Doctrine of Transubstantiation which states that while the instruments of the Eucharist - meaning the bread and wine - keep all of the sensor characteristics of bread and wine, in the most REAL way possible, the Bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, but prefer the doctrine of Consubstantiation, so be it. (Consubstantiation states that Christ is present in, over, under, and through the bread and wine while the bread and wine remain.) Or if you just want to accept that Jesus Christ told the truth when he held aloft bread that Passover and confessed over it - THIS **IS** my Body, This **IS** my Blood. I care little and truthfully I think the Lord would agree. Its not HOW you understand the real presence to be true so much as that you DO understand that Jesus Christ is real and present in the Lords Supper.
***Note that he says is. How can you doubt what the Lord Himself confessed? DO you think that He, being God, could not see down the annals of history when he said these words? Do you think He, being God, would have said IS if he had meant Represents?
I know that Eucharistic detractors like to point to the do this in remembrance of me passage. WHAT was God commanding when he said that? DO - do what? Take the Eucharist? Nope. Read the verse.
Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
The Lord said to do this in remembrance in reference to His confession that the Bread is His Body. The first this in that sentence is in reference to the bread which he held at that moment in time. The second this is in reference to the first part of that sentence. So that it reads - This [the bread] is my body which is given for you: this [he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you] do in remembrance of me.
The heretical sects who threw out 90% of Christian theology such as the Cathars and Albigensian heretics of Mediaeval France who threw out the Incarnation of Christ - KEPT the mass!
The other thing that BAFFLES me is - If the Mass is an error, and the Eucharist a lie (meaning that they belong to Satan and spawned by he) why pray tell is there the BLACK MASS? Scripture clearly states - through the Lords own lips that a house divided cannot stand - when they accused him of casting out devils by a devil. The same can be applied in regards to the Eucharist. If God is not present in the Eucharist rendering it an ungodly and thus Demonic thing - then Satan should be compelling all men to believe in it rather than to reject it even going to far as to perverting it into the Black or Satanic Mass.
If you do not agree with the Doctrine of Transubstantiation which states that while the instruments of the Eucharist - meaning the bread and wine - keep all of the sensor characteristics of bread and wine, in the most REAL way possible, the Bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, but prefer the doctrine of Consubstantiation, so be it. (Consubstantiation states that Christ is present in, over, under, and through the bread and wine while the bread and wine remain.) Or if you just want to accept that Jesus Christ told the truth when he held aloft bread that Passover and confessed over it - THIS **IS** my Body, This **IS** my Blood. I care little and truthfully I think the Lord would agree. Its not HOW you understand the real presence to be true so much as that you DO understand that Jesus Christ is real and present in the Lords Supper.
***Note that he says is. How can you doubt what the Lord Himself confessed? DO you think that He, being God, could not see down the annals of history when he said these words? Do you think He, being God, would have said IS if he had meant Represents?
I know that Eucharistic detractors like to point to the do this in remembrance of me passage. WHAT was God commanding when he said that? DO - do what? Take the Eucharist? Nope. Read the verse.
Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
The Lord said to do this in remembrance in reference to His confession that the Bread is His Body. The first this in that sentence is in reference to the bread which he held at that moment in time. The second this is in reference to the first part of that sentence. So that it reads - This [the bread] is my body which is given for you: this [he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you] do in remembrance of me.
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Jn: and what is spirit and life? that HIS BODY is meat indeed which we MUST consume to have life in us. Your flesh refuses to accept that we can eat his flesh and for this and for this reason men walked away from Christ. The SPIRIT bares witness that His flesh IS the Eucharist.
Terri - what do you know of the ark of the Covenant?
Terri - what do you know of the ark of the Covenant?
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Terri
Senior Veteran
God's Words are what we are to consume and what sustains us!!
The people walked away from Him because they didn't realize that He was speaking spiritual things. They thought he meant they had to gnaw on Him.
Feeding on God's Words fills me much more spiritually than gnawing on his flesh ever could!
What do you want to know about the Ark of the Covenant? I can't just tell you everything I know--I don't have the time.
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