Poll on whether to allow full discussion of homosexuality in TLT, part deux

Godlovesmetwo · Aug 16, 2016

Martinius said:
Kind of like the "liturgy police" at some parishes who are quick to report a priest who seems to deviate from the approved rubrics or changes/adds/deletes some wording at a Mass.

The liturgy police !
Feel sorry for priests. They cant please everyone.

Fish and Bread · Aug 17, 2016

Martinius said:
From what I've read by those who have been put under the CDF microscope [won't say inquisition here, as that would be unkind] the initial impetus usually comes from outside the CDF, when others report a book or other writings by the "suspect". There may be instances where the CDF initiates an investigation on its own, but apparently it mostly utilizes "tips" from those who simply disagree with the author or question their orthodoxy. Kind of like the "liturgy police" at some parishes who are quick to report a priest who seems to deviate from the approved rubrics or changes/adds/deletes some wording at a Mass. The bishop doesn't send out spies to monitor parish priests (I hope) but others are happy to do the dirty work. The CDF seems to operate the same way.

What is also interesting to me is that a theologian can go along for years "testing the boundaries" without a problem, as long as the testing occurs in theological journals and in discussions with other theologians. But once they publish something in a book or periodical that is more readily available to the general Catholic reader, they start to panic. In other words, there is a lot going on in theology, Catholic and otherwise, that most of us are just not aware of. The CDF likes to keep it that way.

Hmmm. I'm generally aware of this, but the few people I know who run in reasonably highly placed church circles (Sadly getting even fewer) are decidedly to the conservative side of the ledger. If anyone wants to share the name of one of these theological journals not generally available to the public that leans highly avent-guard progressive or liberal, I could probably arrange to get myself a few random issues through someone. If anyone knows a good one and doesn't want to share the name of the publication publicly, send me a private message (Volume and issue numbers of good ones to try to get are optional). I'm just interested in reading one, obviously I'm the opposite of the type of person who'd complain to the CDF, as folks can see by the opinions I generally express.

Colin · Aug 17, 2016

Davidnic said:
Well Liberal is the best word for the theology...a theology with accord with Enlightenment and post Enlightenment philosophy with parallel view to modernist thought. That is Liberal Theology. And there are expressions of it that mix with Catholic Theology. These expression rely heavily on a development of Dogma that is arguably at odds with Catholic Theology. This is why it requires its own safe haven.

Don't take this personally , David , but if your words had been written in Chinese I would still be none the wiser .

anjelica · Aug 17, 2016

Marty, thankyou again. I mentioned Hans Kung and Joan Chittister because Davidnic spoke of them in hismpost as liberal theolgians. I di have all of Hans Kung's books, and one of Joan Churtister's but I dislike Joan Chuttister's writings and stance. That I dislike someone though, does not mean they do not have meaning and value to others. I like many luberal theolgians. And when I was in the academic world itwas ALL ABOUT testing boundaries, not going by received wisdim (ie thinking for yourself, not being told what to think)". I went through a very very luberal stage, for want of a better word - feminist theolgy, the KOT. But in the end I came to a position I had never held before, which was mych mych more irthodox. There were reasons for that which I mught explain sometime if it ever fets to discussing these things. M y academic s tudies, plus my father's deat h, an d var ious spir itual experiences that I ha d, led me to the Catholic Church . But f or me, the most important thing is that ALL are welcome. Whatever stance they take, and who or whatever they are abpnd name themselves as. If that is l i beral then I don't know.

Oh and by the way I LOVE all the ones you have been discussing, like Rohr, Merton, and Rolheiser.

I also lve liberation theologians which some would want to condemn me for. Not the later revolutionary ones, but the earlier ones.

So, that is me.

Godlovesmetwo · Aug 17, 2016

re Hans Kung:

In 2013, Küng wrote in Erlebte Menschlichkeit ("Experienced Humanity") that he believed people had the right to end their own lives if physical illness, pain, or dementia made living unbearable. He further wrote that he was considering the option of assisted suicide for himself as he was suffering from Parkinson's Disease and was losing the ability to see and write with his hands. Küng wrote that he did not wish to follow the example of John Paul II in this case.[18]

interesting guy who was/is considering euthanasia for himself.

Martinius · Aug 17, 2016

Fish and Bread said:
Hmmm. I'm generally aware of this, but the few people I know who run in reasonably highly placed church circles (Sadly getting even fewer) are decidedly to the conservative side of the ledger. If anyone wants to share the name of one of these theological journals not generally available to the public that leans highly avent-guard progressive or liberal, I could probably arrange to get myself a few random issues through someone. If anyone knows a good one and doesn't want to share the name of the publication publicly, send me a private message (Volume and issue numbers of good ones to try to get are optional). I'm just interested in reading one, obviously I'm the opposite of the type of person who'd complain to the CDF, as folks can see by the opinions I generally express.

It just happens that I have a copy of an old Concilium next to me now, obtained from my favorite Catholic library, which is a repository of all kinds of subversive and heretical books and journals. Concilium began in the last year of Vatican II and was founded by Catholic theologians like Rahner, Kung, Schillebeeckx, Metz and Congar. This journal appears to usually do themed issues, and includes articles by non-Catholic theologians as well. I don't subscribe, since I am far from a theologian, but I have borrowed several past issues which featured topics of interest to me. You can check them out online at concilium.in.

I don't read theological journals often, but I do scour the footnotes of books I read where references to various articles and journals can be found. So I get a sampling of what can be found in those journals. Another journal, and there are many, is Theological Studies, published by Jesuits in the U.S. At their site, one can read older issues as PDF's.

Here is an example of how theologians deal with issues long before they become "public". Pope Francis is having the Church look at marriage and the possibility of divorced and remarried Catholics receiving Communion. Many of us might think he came up with this out of the blue. But a dozen or more years ago, Theological Studies had some controversial articles discussing the indissolubuility of marriage and a pastoral approach to getting divorced and remarried Catholics back to the Sacraments. The theologians were discussing this while Pope JPII was still in charge. Discussed in a Jesuit theological journal, brought front and center by a Jesuit Pope.

As I wrote in another thread, much of what was condemned 50, 100 or 150 years ago is now part of Church teaching, or at least being openly discussed. Basically, theology can and should deal with ideas that go beyond Church doctrine. Doctrine and theology are not the same. Theological discussion sometimes leads to doctrinal development. Always has, always will, despite the attempts by some to put theology into a confining box.

Tallguy88 · Aug 17, 2016

anjelica said:
Right. Am I allowed to vote? I would not label myself luberal, but I welcome ALL debate and discussion. And yes, I too would like to feel there is a place formppl to lay their heads who at present have nowhere. I too care about those who are marginalised for WHATEVER reason. And there can be many. And I have experienced this for myself and NOT only because I am disabled and blind, but for other reasons too. Ppl can be very quick to jyfge, and I do not want to do that. There isnonly one Jydge, and we are simply called to live.

So, uf I could vote I would say yes, give ppl a place to be, as long as we ALL can have a place to be, in here.

Sorry that got a bit long.

It is your decision whether to vote or not. If you did, I would consider it a valid vote.

Tallguy88 · Aug 17, 2016

The official tally is 5 yes vs 2 no.

The following votes have been discounted, all for not being Catholic:

Yes: ToddNotTodd, SummerMadness, pescador, lasthero, LionL, JackRT, cimorene, Julie.S, John Davidson, Stillicidia

No: Tallguy88 (withdrawing my vote, I decided I don't want to be the deciding vote if it is close)

If you are listed above and feel your vote should be counted, please PM me.

This is not intended to call anyone out. Just keeping the process transparent as to how the official tally was arrived at. Of course, we still have over a week left to go on the poll.

tadoflamb · Aug 17, 2016

While I'm aware of the liberal theologians mentioned above, I'm not very familiar with their writings. I'm not sure if it's because I'm sensitive to schism or because I don't have the intelligence or education to understand them fully, but I'm not able to engage in that kind of dialogue. This forum does not exist for me. I've found however, the reason the forum exists and the reason it's existing are two different things. But, that's another matter.

Colin · Aug 17, 2016

I have just come across this wikipedia article.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Catholic_Church

All the more reason for dropping the adjective "Liberal" from the name of this subforum .

Davidnic · Aug 17, 2016

Colin said:
I have just come across this wikipedia article.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Catholic_Church

All the more reason for dropping the adjective "Liberal" from the name of this subforum .

That's addressed in the statement for the Forum

Colin · Aug 17, 2016

Davidnic said:
That's addressed in the statement for the Forum

True , David , but it all adds to the confusion and inabilty to arrive at a satisfactory understanding of the term "Liberal Catholic" , a term which should be omitted from the name of this forum .

Davidnic · Aug 17, 2016

But it is liberal theology....enlightenment based and development of Dogma in a non orthodox manner. That is Liberal Christianity as applied to Catholicism. It has nothing to do with Politics, it is a theological term. We can make a thread to talk about it since this one is about the poll. But there really is no other name that applies to the theology that TLT is designed to provide a safe haven for. It is theologically liberal. Some might use progressive but that is not exactly a theological term for it. So we can discuss the name of the forum but I do not see a better one than the Catholics who made it came up with...even though it has political connotations.

Godlovesmetwo · Aug 17, 2016

I feel fortunate to have this forum, no matter the name. Australia does not provide a good sub-forum like this for catholics. Does the UK have any good catholic forums, Colin?

Davidnic · Aug 17, 2016

If people want to discuss the term Liberal Catholic as it relates to this forum: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-term-liberal-catholic.7961858/

Colin · Aug 17, 2016

bettercallpaul said:
Does the UK have any good catholic forums, Colin?

None that I know of Paul .

Fish and Bread · Aug 17, 2016

bettercallpaul said:
Australia does not provide a good sub-forum like this for catholics.

Actually, CF was originally owned by an Australian named Erwin. I think the forum was even hosted on Australian servers at that time. He was very good at coding, and had a lot of custom features to the software that he designed himself to fit on top of the basic vbulletin stuff he licensed (His customizations disappeared under the second owner, I think).

I think the last few owners have been American, and we get a lot of American posters, but I'm not sure I'd say that this is an American forum as opposed to a UK or an Australian forum. It's just a forum. That Americans are a majority is more a function of just being the majority of the English-speaking Christian world than anything else IMO. We have at least two regular Australian posters here at TLT, and there were a whole slew of them on OBOB some years ago, though I think most eventually moved on (I haven't been a regular poster to OBOB in over a year, but at that time, it seemed like there were far fewer than, say, 10 years ago).

Godlovesmetwo · Aug 17, 2016

Any Aussie mods then? I think Paidiske is a trainee now, no?
How many of the mods are American?
I feel like I'm visiting the U.S. here, every time I login.

anjelica · Aug 17, 2016

Hey,ntwo of us at least are UK. Lol

Godlovesmetwo · Aug 17, 2016

Fish and Bread said:
but I'm not sure I'd say that this is an American forum as opposed to a UK or an Australian forum.

Colin's point though is that politics tends to dominate threads, especially American politics. American culture is the dominant culture here on CF. Don't see many catholic posters from South American countries or Philippines for instance. And yet that would make this a more global and interesting forum, if that were so. English language is the key I guess.

Poll on whether to allow full discussion of homosexuality in TLT, part deux

Do You Want To Open Up Discussion Of Homosexuality And Same Sex Marriage In The TLT Forum?

Yes

No

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