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Poll of TAW for rule

Do you want this rule


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prodromos

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The dozens of local organizations that may or may not be affiliated with that national organization as a chapter, various other national organizations such as some of the ones listed, eg, here 10 Black Lives Matter Organizations You Can Donate Money To Right Now (not an endorsement of any listed organization)
Lord have mercy! Good thing you added your disclaimer.

That George Floyd gofundme link should be an extreme affront to all the black lives that he threatened during his criminal career. Horrible hypocrisy.
 
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Hermit76

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I've decided that I don't want to be in an Orthodox space where I have to continually answer why BLM is an evil, anti-Orthodox movement. I'll check back to see how this vote turns out but right now this is not a healthy Orthodox forum. And yes, I feel that this community should speak clearly about this movement. It is a shame that seekers have to come on here and discern our position. To me it is unthinkable that so few have a voice in this issue. Antichrist will appear but we are not required to be hospitable to him or his "spirit."
 
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prodromos

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More to the point, if people keep wanting to debate my profile picture, if that's what this is about, I added this like three years ago because I felt it was important for Christians to affirm that Black lives matter. Somebody started a thread I didn't want to engage in here questioning whether an Orthodox Christian could affirm that statement and has been questioning my Orthodoxy ever since at almost every opportunity, whether the discussion had anything to do with that specific issue or not. This is always off topic and always an attempt to goad a fight. I'm not going to stop affirming that Black lives do matter.
I consider your icon picture as goading, as do several others, but you dismiss our concerns and carry on regardless. I've learned to ignore it and most of your posts along with it.
 
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Hermit76

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I consider your icon picture as goading, as do several others, but you dismiss our concerns and carry on regardless. I've learned to ignore it and most of your posts along with it.
But those seeking do not know this. And yes this is an issue.
 
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gzt

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I consider your icon picture as goading, as do several others, but you dismiss our concerns and carry on regardless. I've learned to ignore it and most of your posts along with it.
This forum has tools to help you do so more efficiently, if you wish to avail yourself of them.
 
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archer75

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I don't dig the idea of banning posters with "unorthodox" avatars because that seems like a slippery slope. A woman in clerical garb who shows her face and garb on her avatar might then be banned because we don't ordain women.

So I could support a statement against the BLM org, but not tighter controls than CF has on avatars.
 
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prodromos

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This forum has tools to help you do so more efficiently, if you wish to avail yourself of them.
Those tools do not remove your posts, they only prevent me from seeing them, so they are of no benefit to the community at large.
 
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prodromos

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I don't dig the idea of banning posters with "unorthodox" avatars because that seems like a slippery slope. A woman in clerical garb who shows her face and garb on her avatar might then be banned because we don't ordain women.

So I could support a statement against the BLM org, but not tighter controls than CF has on avatars.
Everyone should be afforded the grace to repent of their actions. Banning would only be a last resort for those who obstinately refuse to respect the rules.
 
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gzt

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Anyway, again, I think the bigger problem is Orthodox Christians acting in accord with the Orthodox faith being told they are not doing so and an even bigger one would be encoding that in the rules.
 
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rusmeister

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Who proposed the rule change and for what purpose?
I did. The purpose is to drive anti-Orthodox thought masking as Orthodox thought promoting the devil’s agenda to rile us up in racial fear and hate in the name of fighting injustice to splinter us into civil war, as well as to increase thought opposed to our Faith among the faithful, making them ultimately not faithful. Supporting sexual anarchy (being against the banning of the alphabet soup “LGBTXYZ” being an example of that, when we have iron-clad teaching about sexuality and the family).
 
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rusmeister

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Anyway, again, I think the bigger problem is Orthodox Christians acting in accord with the Orthodox faith being told they are not doing so and an even bigger one would be encoding that in the rules.
The history of Orthodox teaching (dogma) is precisely one of telling some Orthodox Christians that their ideas about the Orthodox Faith are wrong and anti-Orthodox and forbidding and banning them (“anathema”). See Arius, for one of many.
 
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Davidnic

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I did. The purpose is to drive anti-Orthodox thought masking as Orthodox thought promoting the devil’s agenda to rile us up in racial fear and hate in the name of fighting injustice to splinter us into civil war, as well as to increase thought opposed to our Faith among the faithful, making them ultimately not faithful. Supporting sexual anarchy (being against the banning of the alphabet soup “LGBTXYZ” being an example of that, when we have iron-clad teaching about sexuality and the family).

You haven't been the only one to raise the issue of groups with non-Christian views and supporting them in different areas of the forum. It comes up now and again. With certain things like satanic imagery we can make rules for the entire board. With others we have to deal with it on the congregational level in consultation with the members. For instance after this thread is done I will move on to OBOB, because there have been some direct Bishop statements about separating the concept of fighting for equality and the specific movement BLM.

In that thread I would participate also as a voter. But here just as staff.

If we ask the Conservative Christian area about this rule I would participate like I am here. Because it is not my place to tell you what Orthodox belief is. Just to answer process questions and watch the poll.

But when issues like this arise we discuss it with the members of the safe haven. From time to time every few years the flow of current events often require a discussion in a group home forum.
 
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rusmeister

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truncated by me

I feel the same way about MAGA.
I find that to be equally, if not even more, polarizing and just as anti-Christian.
If we're going to start banning social/political slogans and imagery, perhaps all of them should be done away with.
The difference being that MAGA supporters are not starting riots, breaking down gates, charging onto people’s property and threatening them, conducting insurrection and creating “CHAZ” zones, and killing people. They have no organized movement to racially divide, and condemn all murder, of blacks and whites equally. Their supporters do not support sexual anarchy.

Big difference. The two acronyms are not equally supportive of evil, even though both claim to support the good.
 
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rusmeister

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Agree. That might be a more important rule, if we could formulate it. MAGA on its face isn't exactly anti-Christian, but it is even more poisoned by its use.
But “being poisoned” is subjective. You can find evil thoughts and deeds among its adherents. But you cannot find collective, organized support for such evil as you can with BLM, which is on its face anti-Christian. Trying to disown that organization while fully supporting its logo (logismoi?) is disingenuous.
 
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rusmeister

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The young woman was not shot for merely saying All Lives Matter. She engaged confrontationally with the group and her comments escalated into racial slur, the "N" word. That does not justify what happened, but your comment is not based on truth.
That’s just spin. She and her group didn’t shoot anyone. My point, based in truth, is that the people ready to kill are the ones crying “BLM”. Even now you defend them against her.
 
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archer75

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But “being poisoned” is subjective. You can find evil thoughts and deeds among its adherents. But you cannot find collective, organized support for such evil as you can with BLM, which is on its face anti-Christian. Trying to disown that organization while fully supporting its logo (logismoi?) is disingenuous.
I'm not suppprting the logo.

But anyway, I don't worry so much whether something is bad on its face.
 
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rusmeister

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Then we should have our own site. But "we" don't. Why we're having this discussion on this non-Orthodox board is beyond me. I guess it's because the volunteer mods keep this place livable...even though they're not Orthodox.

If you wanna start and moderate your own forum, I'll sign up.

But I don't think BLM should "own" that statement. If some nut made an organization called "Orthodox Christians Are the Mystical Body of Christ" and used it to promote evil, we'd just have to defend the real meaning of that statement.
The statement is a smaller thing, a lesser and more controversial thing (ie, you have a small leg to stand on in defending the proposition, one which , since our Liturgy affirms the value of all lives, is unnecessary for Orthodox Christians to say. We already say that all lives matter, which includes black lives. But BLM supporters notably doNOT condemn black lives killed by the riots themselves. It really IS a political and not a moral movement that accepts only one agenda - the victimhood of minorities, and anything that challenges that narrative is ignored. We don’t need even the statement, “black lives matter”, let alone the logo which has been claimed by the organization which is not a mere web page, as gzt would have us believe, but which represents real people receiving real money and organizing very real anarchy on our streets. Which you guys spend essentially no breath or ink or kilobytes condemning. And if you did, you’d have to come to admit that the logo is connected to those things. Which, it seems, you don’t want to admit.
 
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rusmeister

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Says who? Their About Us statement does not say that. It says they reject it as a "requirement."
We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.
It would seem to me they are merely acknowledging the real social problem the black community has with absentee fathers, with the community being willing to pick up the slack.
Not requiring something is not necessarily the same as opposition or calling for its destruction.
No. If they acknowledged that problem they would speak of the need for fathers, and pronounce the word. They very carefully and explicitly do not. “...mothers, parents, and children”. The “nuclear family” is just a modern term for the ancient formula of father-mother-child, around which extended family can grow, but without which cannot exist. They deliberately exclude the term “father”, irrationally saying “mothers” and “parents”. A more obvious effort to avoid saying “father” could hardly be imagined, and it would be stupid in the extreme, deliberate self-deception, to deny it.
 
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Davidnic

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I'm going to bed. I spent a few hours helping local friends decide whether they should start homeschooling, do Virtual School, or send their children back to face to face in the fall. We homeschool so people ask us a lot about how it works right now. I was just checking in here before bed.

But I'm tired and going to sleep. I'll leave the thread open. Please be kind to each other even a disagreement.

Have a blessed evening.
 
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rusmeister

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I want to make it clear that my engagement with these points is in no way conceding that the blacklivesmatter.com page is at all important for the Black Lives Matter movement, it's just one organization among several. But as we follow this rabbit trail we are getting further and further from something that seems relevant at all to "supporting Black Lives Matter" on a message board. It's such a trek to get to whatever sinister point about family structure (which has not been clearly elucidated here) is being esoterically supported. This is the sort of thing I meant when I said initially that the rule is vague and incorrect.
You wish it hadn’t been clearly elucidated. It has. You just ignore it, and say that we aren’t saying anything of substance. You might as well say that the Bolsheviks were just one organization among several, that there were plenty of “true Communists” who weren’t Bolsheviks. Historically, it didn’t matter. Were there people of good intentions among the Communists of the early twentieth century? Of course. But the peaceful majority, if it was peaceful, didn’t matter. They were swept out of power by the minority that called itself a majority and the bloody history of the Soviet Union after having torn apart the (however degraded) Christian Russian Empire was the result.

The support of sexual anarchy is clear, as you yourself support it indirectly, as well as deny that the Holy Family of history was indeed the father-mother-child arrangement that we call the family, which was called “nuclear” only recently because of a rising distinction between families with more branches (extended family), families without such branches, and broken families (with too few branches).

Indirect support is still support:
Opposition to LGBTQ rights is not Orthodox doctrine.
There is no right to do wrong. Rights exist in order to do right. Engaging in sexual congress outside of marriage (one man+one woman in faithful monogamy for life) is sin, condemned explicitly as such by our Faith. You cannot protect “rights” to engage in such conduct and call yourself a faithful Orthodox Christian. To do so means that you reject clear and established Church teaching. You MUST admit that sexual anarchy is evil, by whatever name it chooses to call itself, in this case by an acronym that masks its true meaning, implying that ontologically, their passions are a natural, right and proper form of their being, rather than fallen passions that they experience, just as we experience other fallen passions, which is what the Church teaches us and you are bound to accept, or leave the Church. The one option you don’t have is to stay in the Church and teach that these passions are “rights” and not sin when engaged in.
 
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