Poll for Christians on Muslims

brightmorningstar · Oct 31, 2011

Steve Bakr,

Do you go to church? Which church? Do you have a spiritual director, Christian counselor, or a Christian mentor that you can bring my most recent explanation of my position to ?

Yes I do, and I know my church leaderships position. There are enough false teachers as spiritual directors. Jesus says all authority is in Him, if a pastors isn’t in line with the word he/she has no authority in Christ.

Now, the Christian position according to my church is we love Muslims and actively reach out to establish good working community relations with them , but we see Islam as anti-Christian.

How are you with this position?

steve_bakr · Oct 31, 2011

brightmorningstar said:
Steve Bakr,

Yes I do, and I know my church leaderships position. There are enough false teachers as spiritual directors. Jesus says all authority is in Him, if a pastors isn't in line with the word he/she has no authority in Christ.

Now, the Christian position according to my church is we love Muslims and actively reach out to establish good working community relations with them , but we see Islam as anti-Christian.

How are you with this position?

Welcome back,

I think it is excellent that your church reaches out to the Muslim community.

I agree with the position that Islam is not in agreement with fundamental Christian beliefs such as the Trinity, the Divinity of Jesus Christ, his sacrifice on the cross for our sins, his resurrection, and ascension to the right hand of God the Father.

In the same way, Judaism is in opposition to the fundamental beliefs of Christianity, as they reject Christ to a greater degree than Islam does.

The basis for interfaith outreach works best when what may be common to Christianity and Islam is recognized in a way that does not jeapardize the integrity of the Christian faith or minimize our theological differences.

We can recognize that Christianity and Islam share certain moral values such as reverence for God, regular prayer, charity towards the poor and needy, and a respect for the prophets of Israel. Also, we can at least acknowledge that Islam has perhaps a higher respect for Jesus Christ than any other religion save the syncretist Vedanta and Hinduism.

As you know, however, good interfaith relationships are not about compromising the integrity of our faith in Jesus Christ, as some people have been led to believe, but it does involve mutual respect of the basic integrity of all people.

Peace of the Lord be with you.
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

brightmorningstar · Oct 31, 2011

Steve Bakr,

I think it is excellent that your church reaches out to the Muslim community.

Ok why is that? We reach out to everyone in the community.

I agree with the position that Islam is not in agreement with fundamental Christian beliefs such as the Trinity, the Divinity of Jesus Christ, his sacrifice on the cross for our sins, his resurrection, and ascension to the right hand of God the Father.

And as Christ is the truth and in whom we have our faith, thus Islam is not in agreement with God.

In the same way, Judaism is in opposition to the fundamental beliefs of Christianity, as they reject Christ to a greater degree than Islam does.

But Jesus Christ told the Jews He is God,
" Before Abraham was born, I AM’
and
"If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
So we know the Jews are wrong, yet you are believing the Jews rather than Jesus Christ.

The basis for interfaith outreach works best when what may be common to Christianity and Islam is recognized in a way that does not jeapardize the integrity of the Christian faith or minimize our theological differences.

That is deception, and is humanism. There are plenty of common values and morals but the Islamic Allah is contrary to God the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

Also, we can at least acknowledge that Islam has perhaps a higher respect for Jesus Christ than any other religion save the syncretist Vedanta and Hinduism.

On the contrary it has less respect as non of the other religions specifically deny Jesus Christ as the risen Son of God.

steve_bakr · Oct 31, 2011

brightmorningstar said:
Steve Bakr,
Ok why is that? We reach out to everyone in the community.

And as Christ is the truth and in whom we have our faith, thus Islam is not in agreement with God.

But Jesus Christ told the Jews He is God,
" Before Abraham was born, I AM'
and
"If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
So we know the Jews are wrong, yet you are believing the Jews rather than Jesus Christ.

That is deception, and is humanism. There are plenty of common values and morals but the Islamic Allah is contrary to God the Father Son and Holy Spirit.
On the contrary it has less respect as non of the other religions specifically deny Jesus Christ as the risen Son of God.

Having a discussion requires you to display a certain amount of logic and intellectual honesty instead of going in a circle and rushing to apply the same worn out stereotypes. You are also expected to be able to process new information.

Peace of the Lord be with you.
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

brightmorningstar · Oct 31, 2011

Steve Bakr,
A certain amount of honesty is indeed required when presented with sound logic.
Therefore having pointed out that as Christ is the truth and in whom we have our faith, thus Islam is not in agreement with God.
So when you post

We can recognize that Christianity and Islam share certain moral values

Yes, we can.

such as reverence for God

No. Denial of Jesus Christ the risen Son of God is not reverence for God.

One has to be careful with deception, its what it says on the tin, it looks like the truth, but isnt.

steve_bakr · Oct 31, 2011

brightmorningstar said:
Steve Bakr,
A certain amount of honesty is indeed required when presented with sound logic.
Therefore having pointed out that as Christ is the truth and in whom we have our faith, thus Islam is not in agreement with God.
So when you post
Yes, we can.
No. Denial of Jesus Christ the risen Son of God is not reverence for God.

One has to be careful with deception, its what it says on the tin, it looks like the truth, but isnt.

What I have experienced is that Muslims revere God and honor Jesus Christ as a prophet.

Peace of the Lord be with you.
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

brightmorningstar · Oct 31, 2011

Steve Bakr,

What I have experienced is that Muslims revere God and honor Jesus Christ as a prophet.

Once again you are twisting what was quoted. I referred only to Islam, not Muslims. The two are different. One can be a Muslim, one cant be an Islam.
So to a corrected version of your response .
Islam doesnt revere God because it denies God and reveres its own Allah.
Islam doesnt honour Jesus Christ because it denies Him as the risen Son of God.

NB Sure the hearts of Muslims are revering and honouring what they think is God, but its not God.

steve_bakr · Oct 31, 2011

brightmorningstar said:
Steve Bakr,
Once again you are twisting what was quoted. I referred only to Islam, not Muslims. The two are different. One can be a Muslim, one cant be an Islam.
So to a corrected version of your response .
Islam doesnt revere God because it denies God and reveres its own Allah.
Islam doesnt honour Jesus Christ because it denies Him as the risen Son of God.

NB Sure the hearts of Muslims are revering and honouring what they think is God, but its not God.

Islam, then, teaches Muslims to revere God and to honor Jesus Christ as a prophet.

As it says in the Upanishads: I (God) am the source of all religions." Every culture has its own view of who God is or is not. This does not mean that each has a different God, however. Each has a different understanding.

You as an Anglican and I as a Catholic have different understandings about God, but we don't say that one of us is not worshipping God. We acknowledge that people can understand God differently.

Peace of the Lord be with you.
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

brightmorningstar · Oct 31, 2011

Steve Bakr,

Islam, then, teaches Muslims to revere God and

But its not God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit so it isnt God, its the Islamic Allah.

to honor Jesus Christ as a prophet

But Jesus is also the risen Son of God, not just a mere prophet. If someone acknowledged you as a poster but did not acknowlege you as a Christian would you be bothered? I can see you have been.
So why do you drop that expectation when it comes to Jesus Christ?
No Islam does not honour Jesus Christ for who He is, God the Son, it dishonours him by only rcognising Him as a prophet.

steve_bakr · Oct 31, 2011

brightmorningstar said:
Steve Bakr,
But its not God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit so it isnt God, its the Islamic Allah.

But Jesus is also the risen Son of God, not just a mere prophet. If someone acknowledged you as a poster but did not acknowlege you as a Christian would you be bothered? I can see you have been.
So why do you drop that expectation when it comes to Jesus Christ?
No Islam does not honour Jesus Christ for who He is, God the Son, it dishonours him by only rcognising Him as a prophet.

It is a matter of whether the glass is half empty or half full. BTW, please see that I edited my previous post.

Peace of the Lord be with you.
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

brightmorningstar · Oct 31, 2011

Steve Bakr,

It is a matter of whether the glass is half empty or half full.

That is exactly what it isn’t... you haven’t addressed the point or the question put to you.

This is major deception in the church.

steve_bakr · Oct 31, 2011

brightmorningstar said:
Steve Bakr,
That is exactly what it isn't... you haven't addressed the point or the question put to you.

This is major deception in the church.

What is major deception?

Have you heard of contextualization missionary work? In the example of Islam, it would take what Muslims do believe about Jesus--his miraculous conception, his performance of miracles, his title of messiah--and then move from Quran to the Bible. Building on what the Quran already says, the case is then made for Jesus as Savior and Son of God. It is the most successful way by far of introducing the Gospel to Muslums. That is the glass half full approach.

Peace of the Lord be with you.
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

brightmorningstar · Nov 1, 2011

Steve Bakr,

What is major deception?

the point put to you that you havent addressed.

But its not God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit so it isnt God, its the Islamic Allah.
But Jesus is also the risen Son of God, not just a mere prophet. If someone acknowledged you as a poster but did not acknowledge you as a Christian, would you be bothered? I can see you have been. So why accept a half acknowledgment when it comes to Jesus Christ?
No Islam does not honour Jesus Christ for who He is, God the Son, it dishonours him by only rcognising Him as a prophet.

NB As to mission, sure you outline a sensible approach, but the Muslim still has to the reject the Quran to accept Jesus Christ as the risen Son of God. But first address what is put to you.

steve_bakr · Nov 1, 2011

brightmorningstar said:
Steve Bakr,
the point put to you that you havent addressed.

But its not God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit so it isnt God, its the Islamic Allah.
But Jesus is also the risen Son of God, not just a mere prophet. If someone acknowledged you as a poster but did not acknowledge you as a Christian, would you be bothered? I can see you have been. So why accept a half acknowledgment when it comes to Jesus Christ?
No Islam does not honour Jesus Christ for who He is, God the Son, it dishonours him by only rcognising Him as a prophet.

NB As to mission, sure you outline a sensible approach, but the Muslim still has to the reject the Quran to accept Jesus Christ as the risen Son of God. But first address what is put to you.

I believe that I have answered your questions. About the analogy of worshipping the rock, I believe it is one of those cases when an analogy goes too far afield of the subject matter.

I believe that I have described to you the approach that is by far the most successful way of bringing the Gospel to Muslims. It is only necessary to reject those parts of the Quran that are not in agreement with Christianity.

Peace of the Lord be with you.
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

brightmorningstar · Nov 1, 2011

Steve Bakr,

I believe that I have answered your questions. About the analogy of worshipping the rock,

So as I said you haven’t addressed the specific points themselves.

So. The points put to you show that your view is neither in line with what Islam and the Quran says, let alone Christianity and the Bible. The two have conflicting descriptions of the deity. This is not opinion, this is demonstrated fact. Your posts have merely avoided addressing this so you can hold to a faulty idea.

steve_bakr · Nov 1, 2011

brightmorningstar said:
Steve Bakr,

So as I said you haven't addressed the specific points themselves.

So. The points put to you show that your view is neither in line with what Islam and the Quran says, let alone Christianity and the Bible. The two have conflicting descriptions of the deity. This is not opinion, this is demonstrated fact. Your posts have merely avoided addressing this so you can hold to a faulty idea.

I have indeed addressed your points and explained my understanding a number of times. Rather than continuing ad infinitum, I'm looking to give more time to my devotional life.

Peace of the Lord be with you.
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

brightmorningstar · Nov 1, 2011

Steve Bakr,

I have indeed addressed your points and explained my understanding a number of times.

And it has been demonstrated your understanding is a deception. It is the reason for that you have declined to address.

steve_bakr · Nov 1, 2011

brightmorningstar said:
Steve Bakr,

And it has been demonstrated your understanding is a deception. It is the reason for that you have declined to address.

What is a deception and what have I declined to address? Every time I have dealt with your issues, you claim I did not address them because you don't like the answers. BTW, why can you not be more civil and drop the accusations? You can disagree with me without demonizing my position. Is it that you just like to argue? You never answered my question about what church you attend.

Peace of the Lord be with you.
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

brightmorningstar · Nov 1, 2011

Steve Bakr,
You still haven’t addressed the points made. How can you know whether I like the answers if you haven’t addressed the points?
All you have done is offer as answers more of why you think as you do.

Let me try this.

But Jesus is also the risen Son of God, yes?
not just a mere prophet. Yes?
So Islam does not honour Jesus Christ for who He is, God the Son, Correct?
So it dishonours him by only recognising Him as a prophet Correct? Would you be honoured if someone acknowledged you as a poster but not as a Christian poster as you affirm? yes/no? If the answer to this question is no you would not be honoured, why would Jesus Christ be honoured by not recognising Him as the Son of God he claims?

Sorry it’s a major point. If someone claimed they steal to honour God would you accept that or suggest that isnt honouring God?

steve_bakr · Nov 1, 2011

brightmorningstar said:
Steve Bakr,
You still haven't addressed the points made. How can you know whether I like the answers if you haven't addressed the points?
All you have done is offer as answers more of why you think as you do.

Let me try this.

But Jesus is also the risen Son of God, yes?
not just a mere prophet. Yes?
So Islam does not honour Jesus Christ for who He is, God the Son, Correct?
So it dishonours him by only recognising Him as a prophet Correct? Would you be honoured if someone acknowledged you as a poster but not as a Christian poster as you affirm? yes/no? If the answer to this question is no you would not be honoured, why would Jesus Christ be honoured by not recognising Him as the Son of God he claims?

Sorry it's a major point. If someone claimed they steal to honour God would you accept that or suggest that isnt honouring God?

Islam does not accord Jesus Christ the honor he deserves, as it denies his atoning sacrifice on the cross, his resurrection, and his rightful place as Son of God at the right hand of the Father. Does that address your question? Perhaps I should have been more clear about that.

I do believe, as I said, in engaging with Islam in a positive manner by recognizing what it does acknowledge about Jesus--ie., his birth by a virgin and his miracles--and building on that. Doing that requires a constructive use of the Quran, and acknowledgment that Islam refers to the God of Abraham and OT prophets. This provides a constructive basis for dialogue. Can you live with that?

I hope this addresses the import issue that you raised.

Peace of the Lord be with you.
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)

Poll for Christians on Muslims

Do you:

Do you love muslims

Do you respect muslims

Do you not love muslims at all

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Christian

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