political hijacking of symbols

[awitch]

If you've been paying attention to the news at all lately, you've probably heard how President Donald Trump used Federal police to clear out peaceful protestors so he could walk across the street and get his picture taken holding up a Bible in front of a church that he's been to once in some kind of desperate attempt to get votes from his Christian base.

Apparently, some Christians were outraged about this, saying he shouldn't use the Bible as a prop for his political agenda and election drive. They said it was idolatry and an abuse of sacred symbols. Basically, he hijacked religious symbols for political gain.

I'm confused how this is any different than placing 10 Commandment monuments or Judeo-Christian only holiday displays on courthouse properties. How is it different than insisting on Judeo-Christian only prayers before town council meetings? Christians have been fighting for that for decades, so why is it suddenly bad?

 

[Silmarien]

If you've been paying attention to the news at all lately, you've probably heard how President Donald Trump used Federal police to clear out peaceful protestors so he could walk across the street and get his picture taken holding up a Bible in front of a church that he's been to once in some kind of desperate attempt to get votes from his Christian base.

Apparently, some Christians were outraged about this, saying he shouldn't use the Bible as a prop for his political agenda and election drive. They said it was idolatry and an abuse of sacred symbols. Basically, he hijacked religious symbols for political gain.

I'm confused how this is any different than placing 10 Commandment monuments or Judeo-Christian only holiday displays on courthouse properties. How is it different than insisting on Judeo-Christian only prayers before town council meetings? Christians have been fighting for that for decades, so why is it suddenly bad?

The denomination whose historic church was used for this photo-op, the Episcopal Church, is actually one of the most liberal Christian churches. Much of the outrage has come from the leadership of the Episcopal Church, whose focus is generally civil rights, not the presence of Christian symbols in public places.

I have seen very little criticism from conservative Christians, so I think for the most part, what is going on is that you're seeing the religious left up in arms for once.

 

[Arcangl86]

If you've been paying attention to the news at all lately, you've probably heard how President Donald Trump used Federal police to clear out peaceful protestors so he could walk across the street and get his picture taken holding up a Bible in front of a church that he's been to once in some kind of desperate attempt to get votes from his Christian base.

Apparently, some Christians were outraged about this, saying he shouldn't use the Bible as a prop for his political agenda and election drive. They said it was idolatry and an abuse of sacred symbols. Basically, he hijacked religious symbols for political gain.

I'm confused how this is any different than placing 10 Commandment monuments or Judeo-Christian only holiday displays on courthouse properties. How is it different than insisting on Judeo-Christian only prayers before town council meetings? Christians have been fighting for that for decades, so why is it suddenly bad?

For the most part the Christians outraged about the photo op also have issues with stuff like displaying the 10 COmmandments or school prayer or Christocentric prayer at government events.

 

[Noxot]

If you've been paying attention to the news at all lately, you've probably heard how President Donald Trump used Federal police to clear out peaceful protestors so he could walk across the street and get his picture taken holding up a Bible in front of a church that he's been to once in some kind of desperate attempt to get votes from his Christian base.

Apparently, some Christians were outraged about this, saying he shouldn't use the Bible as a prop for his political agenda and election drive. They said it was idolatry and an abuse of sacred symbols. Basically, he hijacked religious symbols for political gain.

I'm confused how this is any different than placing 10 Commandment monuments or Judeo-Christian only holiday displays on courthouse properties. How is it different than insisting on Judeo-Christian only prayers before town council meetings? Christians have been fighting for that for decades, so why is it suddenly bad?

It's always been bad that's why I don't accept Kings condemning Saints and theologians.

 

[PloverWing]

I'll add this to what's been said: There's a difference between using Christian symbols in a way that's generally positive, but oblivious to the rights of minority religions; and using Christian symbols to promote actual evil or violence. Christocentric prayers at government events do, I agree, ignore the sensibilities of non-Christians; they're a problem because they're a step towards an establishment of a religion. But the prayers themselves are usually a generic statement of goodness -- "God bless the graduating class of 2020" and so on.

By contrast, what we saw this week looked like the use of a church to endorse police violence, without the consent of that church. That's an evil of a different kind.

I remember the controversy in the early 1980s over the naming of one of the Navy's new ships. The Navy originally planned to name the ship the USS Corpus Christi, after the city of Corpus Christi, TX, where an important Naval Base is located. There was an outcry from the Catholic community: You will not name a war ship "the Body of Christ". The name of the new ship was changed to the USS City of Corpus Christi.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

They're outraged because it's Trump. If it's Nancy Pelosi referring to her 'Catholic faith' and saying she prays for the President, it's a deep statement of just how wonderful she is. If it's a Democrat using their religion to prop up Illegal immigration then that is sincere.

I don't see what Trump did as anything particularly bad, at least when I look at history as a whole. Rulers before Trump have used Christian symbols, sometimes sincerely and insincerely. Been that way since Constantine and I happen to approve of Constantine.

As for whether or not Trump is sincere, I think he is. Not in an especially devout sense (He's no Louis the Pious or Alfred the Great) but rather in a cultural sense. He sees the value in preserving an Idea of America and not burning it down (like the people who tried to burn this Church down evidently believe).

Besides, why should we take liberal complaints against the use of religion as a symbol seriously when they do it themselves? How many Democrats go to black Churches in campaign season? How many Democrats go around larping as Catholics?

 

[Noxot]

I understand the Republican perspective of wanting to protect jobs and businesses. I feel sorry for those who have damaged property by Hooligans that are taking advantage of a situation. Sure they demonstrate why should we participate in society if it's no good and then they proceeded to be no good to show that they won't even participate in the goods in society if Society is going to keep going downhill... then what we'll have is the very chaos that we are having. Sprinkled with some nice moments.

sadly the entire law system needs to be greatly reformed and that's not going to happen.

 

[dzheremi]

If you've been paying attention to the news at all lately, you've probably heard how President Donald Trump used Federal police to clear out peaceful protestors so he could walk across the street and get his picture taken holding up a Bible in front of a church that he's been to once in some kind of desperate attempt to get votes from his Christian base.

Apparently, some Christians were outraged about this, saying he shouldn't use the Bible as a prop for his political agenda and election drive. They said it was idolatry and an abuse of sacred symbols. Basically, he hijacked religious symbols for political gain.

I'm confused how this is any different than placing 10 Commandment monuments or Judeo-Christian only holiday displays on courthouse properties. How is it different than insisting on Judeo-Christian only prayers before town council meetings? Christians have been fighting for that for decades, so why is it suddenly bad?

It doesn't seem like you're confused...this seems like how it is.

 

[awitch]

Besides, why should we take liberal complaints against the use of religion as a symbol seriously when they do it themselves? How many Democrats go to black Churches in campaign season? How many Democrats go around larping as Catholics?

Personally I think campaigning at a church or publicly stating their religious identity is an entirely different ballpark than incorporating religious symbology for political gain.

If liberal politicians exploit religion for votes, then it's fine for conservative politicians to exploit religion, too?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Personally I think campaigning at a church or publicly stating their religious identity is an entirely different ballpark than incorporating religious symbology for political gain.

If liberal politicians exploit religion for votes, then it's fine for conservative politicians to exploit religion, too?

It's within the rights of any politician to do it in the USA. I'm only pointing out the hypocrisy of the left in criticizing Trump for doing it.

It ultimately comes down to whether you believe the Politician involved is sincere or not. I look at most Democrats and how their policies violate every more prescription of Christianity and consider them insincere. Though I will point out, the Pro-life Democrat I consider more sincere than perhaps even many Republicans since they lose so much in proclaiming their position publicly.

Trump I do not think is especially devout, at least not in the classical Christian sense. But what is he doing? He's advancing a conservative Christian agenda more than any Republican has before him.

How can the right not approve of his use of these images when he seems to be doing such a good job to them? We certainty can't be expected on religious grounds to condemn Trump for doing these things.

 

[Robban]

If you've been paying attention to the news at all lately, you've probably heard how President Donald Trump used Federal police to clear out peaceful protestors so he could walk across the street and get his picture taken holding up a Bible in front of a church that he's been to once in some kind of desperate attempt to get votes from his Christian base.

Apparently, some Christians were outraged about this, saying he shouldn't use the Bible as a prop for his political agenda and election drive. They said it was idolatry and an abuse of sacred symbols. Basically, he hijacked religious symbols for political gain.

I'm confused how this is any different than placing 10 Commandment monuments or Judeo-Christian only holiday displays on courthouse properties. How is it different than insisting on Judeo-Christian only prayers before town council meetings? Christians have been fighting for that for decades, so why is it suddenly bad?

Is not a cross the symbol of Christianity?

 

[Silmarien]

They're outraged because it's Trump. If it's Nancy Pelosi referring to her 'Catholic faith' and saying she prays for the President, it's a deep statement of just how wonderful she is. If it's a Democrat using their religion to prop up Illegal immigration then that is sincere.

I don't see what Trump did as anything particularly bad, at least when I look at history as a whole. Rulers before Trump have used Christian symbols, sometimes sincerely and insincerely. Been that way since Constantine and I happen to approve of Constantine.

As for whether or not Trump is sincere, I think he is. Not in an especially devout sense (He's no Louis the Pious or Alfred the Great) but rather in a cultural sense. He sees the value in preserving an Idea of America and not burning it down (like the people who tried to burn this Church down evidently believe).

Besides, why should we take liberal complaints against the use of religion as a symbol seriously when they do it themselves? How many Democrats go to black Churches in campaign season? How many Democrats go around larping as Catholics?

He had a crowd of peaceful protesters cleared with intimidation tactics to have a photo-op at a church which had apparently not even been informed beforehand that he was going to visit. A visiting Episcopal priest at the parish was amongst those who were effectively chased away from the church. Here is her story: Gini Gerbasi

There is more to this than outrage over it being Trump. The Episcopal Church, at least, is angry in part due to the way it was treated during this whole fiasco. To the best of my knowledge, Nancy Pelosi has never had crowds dispersed and Catholic priests chased out of a Catholic church so that she could bring a camera crew in to show how wonderfully Catholic she is.

 

[awitch]

How can the right not approve of his use of these images when he seems to be doing such a good job to them? We certainty can't be expected on religious grounds to condemn Trump for doing these things.

Just seems weird how conservative Christians would say that Obama was the literal anti-Christ, but when a president shows absolutely no Christian qualities (or redeeming qualities in general), it's fine as long as he caters to them. Like virtue goes right out the window and it's excused because hey, more conservative judges.

 

[dzheremi]

Just seems weird how conservative Christians would say that Obama was the literal anti-Christ, but when a president shows absolutely no Christian qualities (or redeeming qualities in general), it's fine as long as he caters to them. Like virtue goes right out the window and it's excused because hey, more conservative judges.

I don't see how that makes them different than anyone else just because they claim to have a religious outlook. How many who deplored Kavanaugh (sp?) for his alleged behavior will go on to vote for Biden despite his facing allegations of a similar inappropriate behavior, more or less entirely out of political considerations? I don't know, obviously, but we will find out soon enough, and I am willing to bet that the answer will be significantly more than zero.

 

[Noxot]

I like Obama because his Charisma score is 18. In fact it's 22 when his Mages cast Eagle's Splendor on him.

 

[cloudyday2]

If you've been paying attention to the news at all lately, you've probably heard how President Donald Trump used Federal police to clear out peaceful protestors so he could walk across the street and get his picture taken holding up a Bible in front of a church that he's been to once in some kind of desperate attempt to get votes from his Christian base.

Apparently, some Christians were outraged about this, saying he shouldn't use the Bible as a prop for his political agenda and election drive. They said it was idolatry and an abuse of sacred symbols. Basically, he hijacked religious symbols for political gain.

I'm confused how this is any different than placing 10 Commandment monuments or Judeo-Christian only holiday displays on courthouse properties. How is it different than insisting on Judeo-Christian only prayers before town council meetings? Christians have been fighting for that for decades, so why is it suddenly bad?

I don't follow the news, so I don't know any more about this than what you wrote, but I see a couple of differences:
(1) If it was a campaign appearance then it was Trump the individual who was hijacking the religious symbol as opposed to the US government. Of course the campaigning of an incumbent President is difficult to separate from the government.
(2) Religious monuments on government property or religious rituals officially embedded in government activities seems worse than the short-term hijacking of religious symbols/property/rituals - simply because it is less ad hoc.

EDIT: Hmmmm, actually these differences support the basic point you were making in the OP. If Christians are upset about Trump's photo-op at a church then they should be even more upset about Christian religious monuments on government property and Christian invocations at government functions.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If you've been paying attention to the news at all lately, you've probably heard how President Donald Trump used Federal police to clear out peaceful protestors so he could walk across the street and get his picture taken holding up a Bible in front of a church that he's been to once in some kind of desperate attempt to get votes from his Christian base.

Apparently, some Christians were outraged about this, saying he shouldn't use the Bible as a prop for his political agenda and election drive. They said it was idolatry and an abuse of sacred symbols. Basically, he hijacked religious symbols for political gain.

I'm confused how this is any different than placing 10 Commandment monuments or Judeo-Christian only holiday displays on courthouse properties. How is it different than insisting on Judeo-Christian only prayers before town council meetings? Christians have been fighting for that for decades, so why is it suddenly bad?

I have a suspicion that those of us who don't like Trump's political use of a Bible and a church as props also aren't generally in favor of forcing the 10 Commandments on public property or forcing our prayers in civil institutions.

-CryptoLutheran