Poisons

[AV1611VET]

So Jesus was a sinner?

Wow!

Didn't hear a word I said, did you?

I understand why.

 

[lesliedellow]

As I understand it, the word "grape juice" didn't exist either; and God's choice word for it was "wine."

Over time, "wine" as grape juice fell out of use and became only the fermented kind.

That belongs to the same class of fiction as a gate in Jerusalem called the eye of a needle. You don't like something the Bible says, so you make up a story to explain it away.

 

[Goonie]

Did "grape juice" exist when the KJV was written?

Logically, yes. It is crushed grapes after all, and wine did exist.

 

[46AND2]

I think so.

And yet the KJV uses the word "wine" instead of "grape juice?"

 

[46AND2]

Let me guess: smoking isn't a sin either, is it?

The Bible makes it pretty clear that drinking in excess is a sin; and implies that drinking in moderation is not frowned upon.

 

[lesliedellow]

Let me guess: smoking isn't a sin either, is it?

Nope. It is stupid, but it isn't a sin, unless other people are being forced to breath in the carcenogenic chemicals you are puffing out.

 

[AV1611VET]

That belongs to the same class of fiction as a gate in Jerusalem called the eye of a needle. You don't like something the Bible says, so you make up a story to explain it away.

You're entitled to your opinion.

 

[lesliedellow]

You're entitled to your opinion.

It is no opinion when I have got you on hand as evidence of the fact.

 

[AV1611VET]

And yet the KJV uses the word "wine" instead of "grape juice?"

Yes.

Author's choice.

Consider this:

How popular was the term "grape juice" in 1611?

People were probably drinking grape juice at the time and calling it "wine."

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

As I understand it, the word "grape juice" didn't exist either; and God's choice word for it was "wine."

Over time, "wine" as grape juice fell out of use and became only the fermented kind.

Equivalent words would be "queer" and "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]."

ETA: Okay, skip that second example.

Once legitimate words, but then hijacked and now considered perjorative.

When I first joined here, "Arab phone" was a legitimate entry in Wikipedia, and I used it a lot.

But it was removed from Wikipedia, and when I use it now, newbies don't know what I'm talking about.

Not really true. Ephesians 5:18 says not to get drunk on 'Oinos' or Wine. Not possible if it was non-alcoholic.
Besides in all other sources of the period, Oinos means fermented wine. In the first century it was virtually impossible to prevent fermentation so grape juice became wine inevitably. They could keep a small amount of initial juice for about a year unfermented, called Trux by the Romans, but it was ruinously expensive.

Sometimes our sources say Karpos tis Ampelou or Fruit of the Vine which from the context probably refers to fruit juice in some instances, while Oinos never refers to anything but wine. Notably Jesus uses Fruit of the Vine regarding the last supper, so an argument for fruit juice or wine can be made here, but not for the wedding at Cana.

 

[AV1611VET]

Nope.

And since the Bible doesn't mention LSD, crack, or marijuana ...

 

[lesliedellow]

Consider this:

How popular was the term "grape juice" in 1611?

People were probably drinking grape juice at the time and calling it "wine."

Exactly what has 1611 got to do with anything? The Cambridge Concise Dictionary of New Testament Greek, anf the Pocket Oxford Classical Greek Dictionary, both define. οινος as wine. So unless you can find a lexicon of ancient Greek which defines it as grape juice......

 

[46AND2]

People were probably drinking grape juice at the time and calling it "wine."

Regardless of whether this is true or not, you realize that it is quite obvious you pulled this out of your...hat...right?

 

[AV1611VET]

Ephesians 5:18 says not to get drunk on 'Oinos' or Wine.

Yes, and It also says ...

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

 

[Kenny'sID]

As I understand it, the word "grape juice" didn't exist either; and God's choice word for it was "wine."

I would have to agree with that.

Simple fact: drinking is a sin.

I don't drink but disagree with that completely. Being a drunkard is a sin, and a serious one.

I never could figure out how people get that drinking is a sin from the bible so, all I can assume is it was taught to them (Baptist?) and they bought it without researching it, or depended on twisted scripture to explain it into reality.

 

[AV1611VET]

Regardless of whether this is true or not, you realize that it is quite obvious you pulled this out of your...hat...right?

If you think I did, then get saved and ask them yourself.

I'll be more than happy to see you in Heaven saying, "Told ja so!"

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't drink but disagree with that completely.

I understand.

 

[lesliedellow]

If you think I did, then get saved and ask them yourself.

I'll be more than happy to see you in Heaven saying, "Told ja so!"

I don't think you did; I know you did.

 

[lesliedellow]

Yes, and It also says ...

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

If Jesus transformed water into grape juice at the marriage in Cana, why did the governor of the feast feel called upon to comment (approvingly) upon the quality of the wine? Couldn't he tell the difference?

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't think you did; I know you did.

Fine.

If [you think] you're one of the elect, are you anticipating telling me, "I told you so," when we see each other in Heaven?