Pledge of allegiance idolatry

[malckiah]

I know this will send shockwaves through the forum, but i feel it is needed to address as many who pledge allegiance are Christians unknowledgable in what they are truly doing. I am sure that many of you are so devoted to your precious America that you get angry at even the thought of what i am saying, but there is NO way to get around the truth that The pledge of allegiance is full of idolotry and is an abomination to God...
How you might say... well the first sentence alone tells the story. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of America." Do you see what you are saying? Regardless of what you feel in your heart you must notice what you are saying... I Pledge... pledge means to promise. Allegiance... Allegiance is loyalty and or devotion. And what are you promising loyalty and devotion to?.... keep going.... THE FLAG! A material object! But you say, no i am promising loyalty to my country. Well no... later the pledge says, "AND to the republic for which it stands. So at first you promise devotion and loyalty to THE FLAG, THEN to the republic. Hence it is illegal to burn an american flag. We are to give this loyalty and devotion only to God! Yes, we can and should obey goverment as long as it does not go against the word of God. And yes we should be thankful and give thanks to God that we can live in freedom in such a beautiful country. But you can not get around the fact that when you say the pledge of allegiance you are promising loyalty and devotion to a material unliving object in the first sentence. Thank you and God bless!

 

[billwald]

Then wedding vows are also idolatry?

 

[HighwayMan]

...I think that somewhere along your schooling you missed the class that explained symbolism.

 

[thecherb]

LOL wow....I can't help but laugh. Just as HighwayMan said, symbolism. If we do choose to pledge allegiance, it is not to the material object of the flag, but to that which the flag represents. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, if you will.

 

[champuru]

Pledging Allegiance is completely different from worship. Pledging Allegiance does mean you are promising loyalty which basically means you will stand up for it. You can pledge allegiance (promise loyalty) to a country, organization, or even your family but it doesnt mean that you bow down and worship it! Now if the verse said "I worship you oh great and freedom giving flag" then that would be idolatry. Now if you choose to not say the pledge for some reason, then that is your choice and right.

 

[malckiah]

You are missing the point of what i am saying. Perhaps to you... you have obviously passed it off as symbolism and that is good, since that shows that you had no intent of worshipping the flag when you said the pledge. However, my point is not about what you are making it out to mean in your heart, but instead looking at it as it is.... for what it actually says... and it says I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG. promising loyalty and devotion to an unliving material object. read again my first post. You may mean it a different way, but what you mean and what you say are totally different.

 

[champuru]

You are missing the point of what i am saying. Perhaps to you... you have obviously passed it off as symbolism and that is good, since that shows that you had no intent of worshipping the flag when you said the pledge. However, my point is not about what you are making it out to mean in your heart, but instead looking at it as it is.... for what it actually says... and it says I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG. promising loyalty and devotion to an unliving material object. read again my first post. You may mean it a different way, but what you mean and what you say are totally different.

But it is you who are missing the point... when someone BURNS a flag somewhere in the Middle East, it is not the flag that they are angry at, it is what it represents. The Pledge written by a Baptist minister, which would also dispel fear that it was meant as flag worship. Now if you feel it is flag worship, you have the right not to say it

 

[revanneosl]

While Malckiah's original post seemed a bit overwrought, it does raise a topic that I have found to be increasingly disquieting as I grow older. Perhaps here is a good place to write about it and to read what my brothers & sisters have to say on the subject.

Here are the questions that keep pursuing me (and this list is not systematic and well-organized):

1. Where does my true loyalty lie?
2. Can my allegiance be divided?
3. If it can, how many ways can it be divided?
4. If it's possible for me to divide my loyalty to Christ & his kingdom from my loyalty to my nation (the United States of America), what do I do when those two loyalties come into conflict with one another?
5. Ought my loyalty to my nation be loyalty to its ideals, or loyalty to its actual existing situation.
6. As my nation's actually existing situation diverges further and further from its ideals, at what point has my nation forfeited any claim to my loyalty?

I also have this persisting commitment to a few theological poistions regarding the interpretation of the scripture passages that seem (to me) to bear on the subject:

1. That all nations are under the judgement of God.
2. That no nation except Israel has any claim to a particularly close relationship with God.
3. That even Israel's particularly close relationship with God may have only existed in history, and not in the present incarnation of the nation called "Israel".
4. That my nation (given the fact that I don't live in Israel) will best be understood under the typology of Pharaoh and/or Caesar.

...and that's all I've really got. Just those various ideas that chase themselves around in my head every time I see a national flag in my church's sanctuary, or every time I'm called upon to pledge allegiance to the flag, or every time I hear somebody say that the United States is "a christian nation"

No answers, just lotsa questions

 

[HuntingMan]

Pledging ALLEGIANCE TO is not bowing down and worshipping.
David covenanted himself to Jonathan...was that also idolatry ?
I think youre making WAY too big a deal of if, honestly.

 

[malckiah]

yes, but again... the problem is that you are pledging allegiance to THE FLAG (an unliving material object! THEN later in the pledge you pledge allegiance to THE REPUBLIC for which it stands! You are pledging allegiance to two seperate things.... though you have combined them, in truth they are not, hence the word (AND)...to the republic...

and what about the american who burns his flag... because he doesn't want it anymore... did you know that that is illegal also!

 

[bgrass1234]

Pledging yourself to support an entity that exists solely upon actions that are in direct conflict with the teachings of Christ falls in the "things christians should not do" category.

 

[Bellicus]

Here are the questions that keep pursuing me (and this list is not systematic and well-organized):

1. Where does my true loyalty lie?
2. Can my allegiance be divided?
3. If it can, how many ways can it be divided?
4. If it's possible for me to divide my loyalty to Christ & his kingdom from my loyalty to my nation (the United States of America), what do I do when those two loyalties come into conflict with one another?
5. Ought my loyalty to my nation be loyalty to its ideals, or loyalty to its actual existing situation.
6. As my nation's actually existing situation diverges further and further from its ideals, at what point has my nation forfeited any claim to my loyalty?

That's good questions to ask our self. Here in Europe most nations seem to be turning to the right wing, and even the most extreme right is getting more support, just like before the war. So in these days where nationalism is growing, it is good for a christian to remember what to put first, not nations and leaders, but God.

 

[Isaiah 53]

LOL!! There is a word for this: SCRUPLE http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13640a.htm


PAX

 

[CryoftheNation]

Pledging ALLEGIANCE TO is not bowing down and worshipping.
David covenanted himself to Jonathan...was that also idolatry ?
I think youre making WAY too big a deal of if, honestly.

No apparently (If you believe some of the people in other threads) that was homosexual marriage!

Oh dear!

And before anyone jumps on me No I don't believe that!! ha ha !

 

[BeanMak]

The OP misses the the difference between allegiance and worship. I have alliegiance to the United States, the Girl Scouts, the Democratic Pary. Allegiance= Alignment

al·le·giance /əˈli

dʒəns/[uh-lee-juh

ns]–noun 1.the loyalty of a citizen to his or her government or of a subject to his or her sovereign. 2.loyalty or devotion to some person, group, cause, or the like

To God, one give worship
wor·ship /ˈwɜr

ʃɪp/ [wur-ship] noun, verb, -shiped, -ship·ing or (especially British

) -shipped, -ship·ping.
–noun 1.reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred. 2.formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning. 3.adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success. 4.the object of adoring reverence or regard. 5.(initial capital letter

) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually prec. by Your, His, or Her). –verb (used with object) 6.to render religious reverence and homage to. 7.to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

There is an obvious difference between the two words

 

[NDNgirl4ever]

The Flag represents the Republic of the United States. You are not pledging allegiance to it, but to the USA. Here's a quote from Francis Bellamy, who wrote the Pledge:

What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:

It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...
The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?
Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...
​

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

 

[Gishin]

and what about the american who burns his flag... because he doesn't want it anymore... did you know that that is illegal also!

As a military member for 3 years and a JROTC member for 3 years before that, I can say with quite certainty that you are wrong.

 

[revanneosl]

No Malkiah, burning an American flag is not illegal. It is, in fact, the preferred method of disposal for a flag "when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display" according to US Code Title 4 sec. 8k
http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/04C1.txt

 

[malckiah]

Well, you whipper snappers sure know your laws! Good for you! I surely don't know everything. But one thing i do know is the point that i have been trying to make this whole time. And that is that nomatter what you say, think, or do, you can not change the one true fact that as the pledge of allegiance is worded you are indeed promising loyalty and devotion to an unliving material object known as a flag! And for those of you who will not read my prior posts... In the pledge of allegiance you pledge allegiance (promise loyalty and devotion) to two things...NOT ONE! It says I pledge allegiance to THE FLAG and then later it says.... AND to THE REPUBLIC. You can make them one in your mind, but it is clearly seperated here and you are indeed promising loyalty to a material unliving object!

 

[plmarquette]

We all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling ... what is of men, of God, of nations... will I pay the consequences for making unpopular decisions ....

Theories are fine.... do you have the heart to live by them , to walk them through?



Some Christian Sects do not take oaths, do not fight in wars....separate themselves from society .... and end up just like the rest of us... divorce, broken marriages, wayward kids....in bondage to sports, music, habits, drugs.... who have pledged their allegiance to sin ....