please tell me I'm not crazy

[erin74]

Ok,

I think I've spent too much time in the anglican section today.

Please help me out in my understanding here.

Ok flow of argument.

He said 'eve was a virgin at the fall"

I said "you're kidding aren't you"

Some other guy with good church history said "I've never heard that before"

He said "Justin Martyr and Irenaeus were his sources" First century I believe he quoted.

I said "I'd prefer to use the bible"

He said "the church said what the scriptures were, don't you think they'd know what they meant when they wrote them"

I said "I disagree, I'll stick with scripture"

He said "You are arrogant if you think that everyone has got it wrong for 2000 years and now you have it right"

I said "I doubt I am alone in my thinking on this. We'll have to agree to differ"

He continued to badger me on this for quite some time, despite my begging not to continue the discussion.

These are not direct quotes.

Am I completely crazy.... or on the right track.

Why is it so strange that I don't want to believe this particular theologian. Why am I not allowed to disagree.

I don't know enough about church history to survive this particular debate, so please help!!!!!

 

[erin74]

ok - maybe I am going crazy.

In the hopes that someone might read this. I found this on another site I go to. I found it a good encouragement.

I don't see any biblical justification for the idea that we become spiritually healthier and more mature by debating against wrong ideas, except in the indirect sense that suffering produces perseverance. I have enough junked up ideas of my own without listening to the junked up ideas of others as well. Spiritual maturity comes through prayerful feeding on God's word, with the help of teachers who treat that word well.

hope others get something out of it too.

 

[Truly Blessed]

Well, I think the other person was rude and arrogant.

He said "the church said what the scriptures were, don't you think they'd know what they meant when they wrote them"

What about all the churhes that got it wrong or got swayed down a different path on subjects and had to be corrected

He continued to badger me on this for quite some time, despite my begging not to continue the discussion.

I find it very difficult sometimes just to ignore a post/thread once I decide not to debate/argue about something anymore. But once I say stop, then sometimes I just ignore everything else the poster says regardless if it is a personal attack or an attack on my posts. (believe me this does not happen a lot )

Am I completely crazy....

Since my education is not in the field of "mental health",

 

[lmnop9876]

don't worry, you're not crazy.
there you go, i told you

 

[erin74]

What about all the churhes that got it wrong or got swayed down a different path on subjects and had to be corrected

Well for starters they would be asking you what you mean by churches - there is only one apparently, and it certainly doesn't require correction!!!!! Well to be fair their argument is that it was so close to the time that they consecrated the scriptures it would have to be right, and they would know more about it than we would 2000 years on - or words to that effect.

But has anyone actually ever heard this teaching before - that eve was a virgin at the fall.

The reason being he was trying to say eve was like mary. eve was a virgin adn was disobedient. mary was a virgin and was obedient - from there he makes the almighty leap that therefore we can have women preachers. I think it is because mary brings in a new role for women... at least i suspect that's where he was going.

Since my education is not in the field of "mental health",

lol - mine is!!!!

 

[erin74]

don't worry, you're not crazy.
there you go, i told you

thank you - it's nice to hear that occassionally!

 

[Truly Blessed]

No, I have never heard the claim the she was a virgin at the time. What was Adams reaction when God created Eve? I believe that might be a logical explaination of what might occur in the future.

The reason being he was trying to say eve was like mary. eve was a virgin adn was disobedient. mary was a virgin and was obedient - from there he makes the almighty leap that therefore we can have women preachers. I think it is because mary brings in a new role for women... at least i suspect that's where he was going.

Leaps - I think you need a space ship to travel that far.
Just because Mary was Blessed does not mean she was without sin .

lol - mine is!!!!

Then just self diagnose

Your not crazy.

 

[Truly Blessed]

I think it is because mary brings in a new role for women... at least i suspect that's where he was going.

New role - I thought Eve brought about the role of women - Mary was only the Blessed amoung women for giving birth to the Savior.

But what do I know

.

 

[erin74]

Ah no - the latest is that apparently Mary acts as a foil for Eve, and so women are no longer responsible for the fall....

I assume this is in reference to the Timothy passage. But if this were the case.... don't you think Paul would have mentioned it?!?!?

I like the self diagnosis idea... how about - you need to go to a retreat for a while! That one I like - I think I'll give myself that.... *sigh* unfortunatly my training wasn't quite good enough for diagnosis and treatment!

 

[Truly Blessed]

Ah no - the latest is that apparently Mary acts as a foil for Eve, and so women are no longer responsible for the fall....

Am I really missing something here?

Would that be the same as saying that I am not responsible for sinning because Jesus takes my sin onto himself?

Forgive me for going here - but to continue the above statement could somebody then say that since I am no longer responsible for my sin it would then be Jesus's fault since the sin is upon Him .

 

[erin74]

no I think we are still responsible for our own sin.. ...but women as a group are not responsible for the fall

when I say I... i am not speaking for myself of course!!!!

 

[Truly Blessed]

I understood what you were saying. But how can a fact be removed - it can't - Eve took the apple - Adam ate the apple. one million years from now will not change facts.

I was just using a different type of situation - example (forgot what the term is) to show false logic.

 

[erin74]

i know... it's a bit discouraging over there at times - that's why I come here to hear sane comments!

I was a bit more disturbed by the 'early church teaches this, and it would know cause they put teh bible together' kind of teaching actually....

I know it's wrong, and yet my serious lack of church history knowledge makes it hard for me to argue the case.....

 

[cygnusx1]

please tell me I'm not crazy erin74


Sorry no can do

 

[JJB]

Erin,

Check out the discussion on the 5solas thread here in SR. They're talkin' about sola scriptura and what it means -- including interpreting passages that appear unclear or inconclusive.

I've never heard about the Eve being a virgin idea.

 

[oworm]

please tell me I'm not crazy

Your not crazy! Feel better now?

 

[Fish and Bread]

Personally, I'm an Anglican and don't think Eve was a virgin either. There seems to be a really strange strand of anti-sexualism present in some Christian circles. Granted, St. Paul did say it is better to remain unmarried if you have the gift of celibacy, but I don't think we can or should take that as far as some try to take it.

I think it is the notion that sex is somehow bad that leads to ideas like Mary having to have been a perpetual virgin, pre-fallen humanity having to be sexless, etc. Personally, I think sex is a gift from God, under the right conditions. God doesn't seem to have an issue with maritial sex. In fact, in many parts of the Old Testament he implicitly encourages it ("Be fruitful and multiple", etc.).

John

 

[erin74]

John,

That is a good point - i hadn't considered the emphasis placed on sexuality by some people.

Even the NT promotes sex - "do not withold from one another, unless for a time of prayer, etc"

and hey - look at Song of Solomon!!! although there is a lot more to that than I think is generally taken from it.

 

[erin74]

please tell me I'm not crazy erin74


Sorry no can do

takes one to know one

cool this is like primary school now!

 

[lmnop9876]

eve not a virgin? eve a virgin? who knows? is it in the Bible? some people think they didn't have long enough to do something like that, they sinned that soon. me personally? I haven't looked into it, so I have no opinion on the matter at this time.