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Please, remind me again...

devin553344

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why Theonomy is wrong?

I'm getting old and forgetful.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

It applies when Jesus returns with judges and throne, etc. I don't see anything wrong with it.
 
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devin553344

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Laws that govern society...from where do or should they derive?

Right and Wrong, Good and Evil morality. See tree of knowledge of good and evil in genesis: Genesis 2:17 Laws are based on some of it, or more accurately the enlightenment of Moses from God, like not stealing, committing murder, etc.
 
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JM

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John Gill writes,

"It may be inquired, whether the judicial laws, or the laws respecting the Jewish polity, are now in force or not, and to be observed or not; which may be resolved by distinguishing between them; there were some that were peculiar to the state of the Jews, their continuance in the land of Canaan, and while their polity lasted, and until the coming of the Messiah, when they were to cease, as is clear from (Gen. 49:10), such as related to inheritances, and the alienation of them by marriage or otherwise; the restoration of them when sold at the year of jubilee; the marrying of a brother’s wife when he died without issue, &c. the design of which was, to keep the tribes distinct until the Messiah came, that it might be clearly known from what tribe he sprung.

"And there were others that were peculiarly suited to the natural temper and disposition of that people, who were covetous, cruel, and oppressive of the poor, froward and perverse, jealous and revengeful; hence the laws concerning the manumission of servants sold, at the end of the sixth year; the release of debts, and letting the land rest from tillage every seventh year; concerning lending on interest; leaving a corner in the field for the poor, and the forgotten sheaf;--and others concerning divorces, and the trial of a suspected wife, and the cities of refuge to flee to from the avenger of blood: these, with others, ceased when the Jewish polity did, and are not binding on other nations.

"But then there were other judicial laws, which were founded on the light of nature, on reason, and on justice and equity, and these remain in full force; and they must be wise as well as righteous laws, which were made by God himself, their King and Legislator, as they are said to be (Deut. 4:6,8).

"And they are, certainly, the best constituted and regulated governments that come nearest to the commonwealth of Israel, and the civil laws of it, which are of the kind last described; and where they are acted up unto, there what is said by Wisdom is most truly verified, "By me kings reign, and princes decree judgment;" and if these laws were more strictly attended to, which respect the punishment of offences, especially capital ones, things would be put upon a better footing than they are in some governments; and judges, in passing sentences, would be able to do that part of their office with more certainty and safety, and with a better conscience.

"And whereas the commonwealth of Israel was governed by these laws for many hundreds of years, and needed no other in their civil polity, when, in such a course of time, every case that ordinarily happens, must arise, and be brought into a court of judicature; I cannot but be of opinion, that a digest of civil laws might be made out of the Bible, the law of the Lord that is perfect, either as lying in express words in it, or to be deduced by the analogy of things and cases, and by just consequence, as would be sufficient for the government of any nation: and then there would be no need of so many law books, nor of so many lawyers; and perhaps there would be fewer law suits.

"However, we Christians, under whatsoever government we are, are directed to submit to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, and for conscience sake; even to everyone that is not contrary to common sense and reason, and to religion and conscience; (see Rom. 13:1-7; Titus 3:1; 1 Pet. 2:13,14)."
 
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JM

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Intro:
Still one of my favs. It points out that we, Western Christians, have limited the Gospel to salvation alone. This is why our society is in decay, we just want to "get folks saved," but not change the society around us.
 
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Messerve

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Intro:
Still one of my favs. It points out that we, Western Christians, have limited the Gospel to salvation alone. This is why our society is in decay, we just want to "get folks saved," but not change the society around us.
So discipleship. I agree that is probably one of the church's weakest areas and one reason my dad is a strong supporter of having Adult Sunday School classes. If you don't grow in your faith and work through what you believe and why, then you will be a very weak Christian and probably not the best witness either.
 
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Tree of Life

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why Theonomy is wrong?

I'm getting old and forgetful.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Hah!

The most thoughtful critiques of Theonomy do not say that it is altogether wrong. Theonomy has some interesting points to make. But some common implications and applications of Theonomic principles are often what trouble people. The devil is in the details.

One foundational issue might be, however, that Theonomy typically assumes a post-millennial eschatology which is more optimistic about the course of fallen history than is warranted by Scripture.
 
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rockytopva

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I had to look that one up... Theonomy, from theos (god) and nomos (law), is a hypothetical Christian form of government in which society is ruled by divine law. Theonomists hold that divine law, including the judicial laws of the Old Testament, should be observed by modern societies.
 
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Tree of Life

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Let's think about the penalties attached to the Law in the OT era and how they apply to modern nations today:
  1. Would it be biblically permissible for a modern nation to inflict capital punishment on adulterers? Sure, why not? Since God commanded this to be the consequence for adultery in the OT, how can we say that a modern nation may not take up a similar consequence?

  2. It is biblically required that a modern nation inflict capital punishment on adulterers? I'm not so sure about this. The most direct analogue for the OT civil laws are translated into the New Testament church. So the NT church is required to excommunicate (unrepentant) adulterers. But the church in the NT does not have the power of the sword and cannot (and should not) kill adulterers. It is not at all clear that a modern nation which is not the church is required by God to kill adulterers. Theonomists suggest the opposite.

  3. Is it biblically wise, in light of the gospel, for a modern nation to inflict capital punishment on adulterers? If it is not required, is it wise? That's a whole other question and we have different biblical principles to inform us here. Didn't Jesus opt to not kill the woman caught in adultery? How should this instance apply to modern nations?
Just a few difficulties that Theonomy has to deal with...
 
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royal priest

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I agree with general equity of it, and the enforcing of the second table, but I am constantly reminded of what our Lord said:

"My kingdom is not of this world." - John 18:36
If only that principle had been applied when Constantine had his grand epiphany.
 
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Tree of Life

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Does the basic idea behind theonomy, mean to be governed by God? Everything in our fallen nature runs towards the notion of autonomy, the antithesis of theonomy.

Theonomy is more specific than that. The basic premise of Theonomy is that all nations ought to submit to the fullness of God's moral and civil law as found in the OT including all of the penalties prescribed for breaking commandments. Theonomy would be opposed to a separation between church and state, for example, and would say that it ought to be illegal to worship any other god than Yahweh.
 
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rockytopva

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Theonomy is more specific than that. The basic premise of Theonomy is that all nations ought to submit to the fullness of God's moral and civil law as found in the OT including all of the penalties prescribed for breaking commandments. Theonomy would be opposed to a separation between church and state, for example, and would say that it ought to be illegal to worship any other god than Yahweh.

Carry it a step further and say we are opposed to any denomination other than the state approved denomination, and make it illegal to worship outside the state approved church.
 
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royal priest

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Just the simple fact that we are still on this side of eternity is enough of an argument against it for me. It didn't do much good for Israel while a theocracy so it surely wouldn't do much good for us. Especially if it fell into the hands of our modern-day Pharisaic secular humanists.
 
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royal priest

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I'm happy to see some life return to Semper!

Laws that govern society...from where do or should they derive?
Romans 2:14-15
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.
Of course, cultural influence on a particular society's overall conscience would play a significant role in how they define the legislative application of that people's inherent moral construct. ie, the reigning figures in a given administration of the legislative branches.
The best case scenario would be if the church could win at informing and winning the conscience of society through public and private witness of the Gospel, God's power of salvation.
 
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