Please release me, let me go...

LutheranHawkeye · Apr 21, 2009

TheCosmicGospel said:
Stude,

So tell us what happened? I just think WELS is too "smirky" - "we are the church" approach, no praying with other Christians, no support of military chaplaincy, hospital chaplaincy, etc., etc., etc.

Welcome to legalism Wisconsin style. Brats anyone?

I'd explore other avenues first.

Peace,

Cos

I wonder if the ELCA views us as we view the WELS on fellowship issues. A very curious point indeed. I guess that's why they call us the most moderate Lutheran body in America.

LutheranHawkeye · Apr 21, 2009

PreachersWife2004 said:
I like how you insult the WELS but sign your posts 'peace'. How very contradictory of you.

Learn about fellowship principles before you knock them. You obviously have no clue what we believe.

Well we are separate for a reason, I don't think we have to all pretend that the LCMS and WELS are of one mind, though I wish we were. Has there been an in depth discussion of WELS/LCMS fellowship policies on here, and if there has been could someone repost it? I for one would like to get a good handle on the WELS position on fellowship!

PreachersWife2004 · Apr 21, 2009

LutheranHawkeye said:
Well we are separate for a reason, I don't think we have to all pretend that the LCMS and WELS are of one mind, though I wish we were. Has there been an in depth discussion of WELS/LCMS fellowship policies on here, and if there has been could someone repost it? I for one would like to get a good handle on the WELS position on fellowship!

We certainly don't have to pretend that we're of one mind, but a little respect goes a long way with me. I've learned over the years that while I might disagree with what someone's church believed, I don't need to insult those who believe it.

The best way to learn about the WELS stance on fellowship is to start HERE. This is a pretty comprehensive outline of why we believe what we do, but even better is the book on fellowship by John Brug. It took me awhile to fully understand the doctrine, but when the lightbulb finally zapped, it made perfect and wonderful sense.

And I can honestly that never once did I ever get the impression that WELS believes that only those who are WELS are going to heaven. If you have encountered WELS people that are like that, then they have an incorrect understanding of what we believe.

Flipper · Apr 21, 2009

I have tried to understand what the WELS believe in as opposed to the LCMS and I just don't agree with it. However, I have yet to see any WELS here be disrespectful towards the LCMS for what they believe - disagreement is not the same as disrespect. Women not being allowed to vote on anything church related will always baffle me, but the WELS men here have shown nothing but respect for the intelligence of the women here. I'll sit here and continue be baffled, but I can't really criticize.

LutheranHawkeye · Apr 21, 2009

PreachersWife2004 said:
We certainly don't have to pretend that we're of one mind, but a little respect goes a long way with me. I've learned over the years that while I might disagree with what someone's church believed, I don't need to insult those who believe it.

The best way to learn about the WELS stance on fellowship is to start HERE. This is a pretty comprehensive outline of why we believe what we do, but even better is the book on fellowship by John Brug. It took me awhile to fully understand the doctrine, but when the lightbulb finally zapped, it made perfect and wonderful sense.

And I can honestly that never once did I ever get the impression that WELS believes that only those who are WELS are going to heaven. If you have encountered WELS people that are like that, then they have an incorrect understanding of what we believe.

I've only met WELS people on here and have no complaints about unkindness, and I've never gotten the impression that they think only WELS members go to heaven. Thanks for the great resources!

PreachersWife2004 · Apr 22, 2009

LutheranHawkeye said:
I've only met WELS people on here and have no complaints about unkindness, and I've never gotten the impression that they think only WELS members go to heaven. Thanks for the great resources!

That's good to know. I have gotten that reaction a few times here at CF (not necessarily here in TCL - I would hope that most Lutherans know better!!) and also from a few people in my own inner circle of friends. Nowhere in our doctrine or beliefs does it even give a hint that we think we're the only ones who got it right. Like most Lutherans, we believe that we're the closest to the bible, though.

I can see how people with limited knowledge about our fellowship doctrine might think that we're arrogant, but really, those people need to study the doctrine better to understand fully what it means. It's not a "we're better than you so we're not gonna socialize with you" type attitude that so many people seem to think it is.

TheCosmicGospel · Apr 22, 2009

PreachersWife2004 said:
I like how you insult the WELS but sign your posts 'peace'. How very contradictory of you.

Learn about fellowship principles before you knock them. You obviously have no clue what we believe.

Becky,

I joined WELS after Missouri. I know of what I speak. You call it bashing to tell another Missouri what WELS is like. "Smirky" is accurate. WELS thinks they are the CHURCH.

So can you PRAY with other Christians?

Do you have military chaplains? Why not?

Tell us. Then we will decide if WELS is "smirky" or not.

Tell the truth instead of playing the "bashing me card" or he signs in "peace" but tells the truth?

There is no perfect church. Leaving one for another is not very smart.

But again, I was asking Stude what he did - not what you thought how "smirky" WELS is.

Lecture us on why WELS is right in not praying with others. But it is "smirky".

Peace,
Cos

LutheranChick · Apr 22, 2009

TheCosmicGospel said:
Becky,

I joined WELS after Missouri. I know of what I speak. You call it bashing to tell another Missouri what WELS is like. "Smirky" is accurate. WELS thinks they are the CHURCH.

So can you PRAY with other Christians?

Do you have military chaplains? Why not?

Tell us. Then we will decide if WELS is "smirky" or not.

Tell the truth instead of playing the "bashing me card" or he signs in "peace" but tells the truth?

There is no perfect church. Leaving one for another is not very smart.

But again, I was asking Stude what he did - not what you thought how "smirky" WELS is.

Lecture us on why WELS is right in not praying with others. But it is "smirky".

Peace,
Cos

CG, if you do not agree with WELS practices, fine. It is your right to disagree and you are entitled to your opinion. However, please refrain from name calling. It is very disrespectful.

PreachersWife2004 · Apr 22, 2009

TheCosmicGospel said:
Becky,

I joined WELS after Missouri. I know of what I speak. You call it bashing to tell another Missouri what WELS is like. "Smirky" is accurate. WELS thinks they are the CHURCH.

You must not understand the doctrine correctly then. We are NOT smirky. WELS does not think she is THE church and I challenge you to show where she thinks she is.

So can you PRAY with other Christians?

If they are in fellowship with us, yes. Otherwise, to pray with someone we are not in fellowship with shows a unity with them, which is incorrect.

And we can certainly pray FOR anyone.

Do you have military chaplains? Why not?

Military chaplains are required to service anyone of any religion. We feel it is better to provide Lutheran pastors for our Lutheran military. Where is the fault in that?

Tell us. Then we will decide if WELS is "smirky" or not.

I could decide that you are being a pompous jerk...but that doesn't mean I have to continually say it here. It's one thing to disagree respectfully. It's another thing to simply call names.

Again, I challenge you to actually LEARN what our doctrine says.

Tell the truth instead of playing the "bashing me card" or he signs in "peace" but tells the truth?

You don't tell the truth. You bash. You call names. In high school, we learned that those are the traits of a person who knows he is losing the debate.

There is no perfect church. Leaving one for another is not very smart.

Where has the WELS claimed she is perfect? NOWHERE. And leaving a church when their doctrine becomes watered down and scripturally incorrect is ALWAYS a smart decision.

But again, I was asking Stude what he did - not what you thought how "smirky" WELS is.

Then keep your rude comments about the WELS to yourself or address them to stude in a PM.

Lecture us on why WELS is right in not praying with others. But it is "smirky".

Praying is a form of worship. Would you worship with someone who didn't believe in real presence? How about someone who didn't believe in infant baptism? When you worship with someone, you claim a unity with that person's doctrine.

Peace,
Cos

What a slap in the face you are. You sit here and make all these remarks about the WELS in the name of "truth" and then say "peace". How do you think you are promoting peace when you say things like this?

There's a lot I don't agree with in some other Lutheran synods, but rather than sit here and diss them I pray for them. Perhaps you ought to do that rather than continue to disparage what you obviously don't understand.

Studeclunker · Apr 22, 2009

I agree that name calling is unhelpful. The truth does not benefit from such a thing. All such does is to incite anger and resentment. If Peace is really desired, insulting comments aren't.

Ladies, I'm struggling with this conversion. The WELS congregatations in this area act in a very... smug, arrogant, manner. How they act elsewhere (besides Orange and Shasta Counties)I don't know. The members are initially frendly when one visits, and then slam the door in a variety of ways. Yet... yet, they can be gracious at the same time. I recieved the package for study this past Sunday. It, as I feared, is geared to the unbeliever. The pastor has granted me an appointment today and we shall see what he requires.

I wish there was time to say more, however, I have to get to work. I'll log on tonight and address this a bit more. Besides, I'll know a bit better what the Pastor's position on this is then.

As to the wisdom of switching Lutheran Denominations, I'd no choice. The LCMS congregation here has diverted so far from core Lutheran doctrine, order, and practice that it was time to leave. I refuse to continue in Pres. K's little pentacostal paradise. "For the road to destruction is wide and smooth and many there are that go that way."

porterross · Apr 22, 2009

That's been my experience with the WELS, too, Stude. It was a brief encounter for very obvious reasons. Their treatment of this non WELS Lutheran was hurtful and I've never forgotten how that felt. Right or wrong, there it is.

wildboar · Apr 22, 2009

There are certain WELS distinctives that I agree with but the ones I disagree with keep me away. I know someone who left a WELS church to become a member of an LCMS church and the letter from the WELS pastor referred to the person as "our former brother in Christ." That's sectarianism in the extreme. I visited a WELS church in my own area and the sermon was most certainly not Christ-centered. I believe all sermons should be Christ-centered. Should WELS people pray with other WELS people who do not preach Christ-centered sermons, what about Christ-centered LCMS pastors? Are labels more important than actual practice?

seajoy · Apr 22, 2009

wildboar said:
There are certain WELS distinctives that I agree with but the ones I disagree with keep me away. I know someone who left a WELS church to become a member of an LCMS church and the letter from the WELS pastor referred to the person as "our former brother in Christ." That's sectarianism in the extreme. I visited a WELS church in my own area and the sermon was most certainly not Christ-centered. I believe all sermons should be Christ-centered. Should WELS people pray with other WELS people who do not preach Christ-centered sermons, what about Christ-centered LCMS pastors? Are labels more important than actual practice?

You are doing everything to make this a sectarian forum. Glad this WELS girl will be out of here for a few days.

One sermon, one pastor....tells of the whole WELS synod....well in the LCMS I'm going to look to your leader to see just exactly what you all believe. You must all be like K.

PreachersWife2004 · Apr 22, 2009

It's unfortunate that you are being treated this way, Stude. There is something not right with the way that church is handling your membership and I suspect there's probably some bad blood between that church and whatever LCMS church is nearby. Not so much between the churches, but the members. I've seen it happen, especially with congregations with older folks who transferred to WELS when the split happened. It's not normal and it's not the way the average WELS church acts.

For example, my father transferred his membership to my mother's WELS church after he grew disgusted with ELCA. (This was right prior to them being married if I recall correctly. ELCA was also ALC at that point in time.) The pastor at the time asked my dad to explain what he understood about WELS doctrines. My dad answered, and the Pastor said that it was good enough - my dad had basically made a full confession of WELS beliefs. My dad still have to take an abbreviated class, but it was like maybe 6 weeks long.

In terms of communion, Stude, if the pastor has offered to commune you in his office, take him up on that offer. Communion, while a show of unity with those who you are taking it with, is still between you and God. There are many shut-ins who take communion privately as well. It does not lessen the significance of the sacrament. And I get the impression that taking communion is important to you.

I respect the questions you have about WELS. You are not the first person to voice such questions, and you join many other WELS members who have asked the same questions. Just look at our Q&A section! It is always better to fully understand something than to agree it just because someone tells you that you have to agree with in order to be a member.

I wish you were in our neck of the woods. My husband would welcome you with open arms. You'd still be required to take SOME classes, but I don't think you'd get the same impression of them that you are getting with your current church.

Studeclunker said:
I agree that name calling is unhelpful. The truth does not benefit from such a thing. All such does is to incite anger and resentment. If Peace is really desired, insulting comments aren't.

Ladies, I'm struggling with this conversion. The WELS congregatations in this area act in a very... smug, arrogant, manner. How they act elsewhere (besides Orange and Shasta Counties)I don't know. The members are initially frendly when one visits, and then slam the door in a variety of ways. Yet... yet, they can be gracious at the same time. I recieved the package for study this past Sunday. It, as I feared, is geared to the unbeliever. The pastor has granted me an appointment today and we shall see what he requires.

I wish there was time to say more, however, I have to get to work. I'll log on tonight and address this a bit more. Besides, I'll know a bit better what the Pastor's position on this is then.

As to the wisdom of switching Lutheran Denominations, I'd no choice. The LCMS congregation here has diverted so far from core Lutheran doctrine, order, and practice that it was time to leave. I refuse to continue in Pres. K's little pentacostal paradise. "For the road to destruction is wide and smooth and many there are that go that way."

PreachersWife2004 · Apr 22, 2009

wildboar said:
There are certain WELS distinctives that I agree with but the ones I disagree with keep me away. I know someone who left a WELS church to become a member of an LCMS church and the letter from the WELS pastor referred to the person as "our former brother in Christ." That's sectarianism in the extreme. I visited a WELS church in my own area and the sermon was most certainly not Christ-centered. I believe all sermons should be Christ-centered. Should WELS people pray with other WELS people who do not preach Christ-centered sermons, what about Christ-centered LCMS pastors? Are labels more important than actual practice?

Since WELS has never made the claim that her pastors were perfect, perhaps you might want to reserve your judgment on the WELS until you get a full picture.

I've been WELS my entire life. I've dealt with between 20-30 pastors in my lifetime between the churches I've attended, whether as a member or as a guest. There's been a couple of doozies - as I'm sure there are in the LCMS as well.

I see the path that ELCA has gone down, and I see the path that K is starting to take the LCMS down, and I think that we're fortunate that the main issue people have with us WELSers is our fellowship doctrine. We stand firm on our doctrines, we do not waiver and we do not let society dictate what we believe, which seems to be a popular trend in churches today. If standing firm is arrogance, then let us be arrogant.

Here we stand. We can do no other. God help us. Amen.

DaRev · Apr 22, 2009

PreachersWife2004 said:
In terms of communion, Stude, if the pastor has offered to commune you in his office, take him up on that offer. Communion, while a show of unity with those who you are taking it with, is still between you and God. There are many shut-ins who take communion privately as well. It does not lessen the significance of the sacrament.

I have to vehemently disagree with this. Communion is as much the coming together of the faithful as it is the individual's personal faith. The two go hand in hand. Comparing this to the communion of the sick and shut-in is comparing apples and oranges. The reason is very different. With the sick and shut-in it's because they are physically unable to gather at the altar. What Stude is being asked to do is completely different. He is most able to gather at the altar, but is being denied for another reason. The pastor obviously feels he is "good enough" to receive the Sacrament, but not "good enough" to receive it with the Church.

IMO, Stude should refrain from receiving the Sacrament in that way. In a sense it's quite insulting. Instead, he should either discern what the pastor's requirements are for right reception, or find another congregation.

PreachersWife2004 · Apr 22, 2009

Perhaps the pastor is trying to avoid a stumbling block to those in his congregation. Stude isn't a technically a member of that church, so he shouldn't technically be receiving communion at all. But it seems as though communion is important to Stude and the pastor has given him a way to take communion.

I only mentioned shut-ins because of the issue of private communion somehow being wrong. I've taken private communion myself a couple of times, given by my husband. There's nothing wrong with private communion, and I do believe that in Stude's case the pastor may have a valid reason for offering him communion but not in front of the church.

A few times we've had an LCMS person come to our old church and Matt would talk to them before the service and agree to commune them privately after the service so as not to give the congregation the wrong idea. Generally, these people were seeking a WELS church to join because they disagreed with the practices of the LCMS and fully understood WELS doctrine - they just hadn't been able to publicly declare it (through classes, etc) and so it was better to commune them privately.

This pastor is not trying to hide Stude. He is merely trying to compromise in what seems to be a very difficult situation.

wildboar · Apr 22, 2009

seajoy said:
You are doing everything to make this a sectarian forum. Glad this WELS girl will be out of here for a few days.

One sermon, one pastor....tells of the whole WELS synod....well in the LCMS I'm going to look to your leader to see just exactly what you all believe. You must all be like K.

I'm not saying they are all like this or that everyone in the WELS is like this. I visited a very good WELS church in KY and my grandmother is in the WELS. Next time I visit my in-laws I'll probably visit that WELS church again. However, in order to be consistent on the fellowship issue, shouldn't those who maintain this position not be fellowshipped with by others in the WELS? Where exactly is the line drawn? Isn't the act of singing songs written by non-WELS basically worshipping with those non-WELS hymn writers?

I've read lots and lots of theological books and I come from a Reformed background where all kinds of doctrines were formulated by some rather complex argumentation. One of the things I really appreciate about Lutheranism is its simplicity. Its doctrine of the Lord's Supper is based on the words of institution. So I start getting suspicious when someone is directed to a lengthy book to substantiate something that should be easily taught from the Scriptures.

DaRev · Apr 22, 2009

PreachersWife2004 said:
I only mentioned shut-ins because of the issue of private communion somehow being wrong. I've taken private communion myself a couple of times, given by my husband. There's nothing wrong with private communion, and I do believe that in Stude's case the pastor may have a valid reason for offering him communion but not in front of the church.

I do believe that the Confessions speak against private Communion.

In the case of the sick and the shut-in, it's a matter of pastoral care. I don't see at all where the situation that Stude describes is a matter of pastoral care. It seems more a matter of bending to the will of the laity in something that is solely the pastor's call. If Stude or anyone else is deemed worthy and prepared to receive Communion in a WELS congregation, then they should be able to receive it during the regular public administration of it in the Mass as the Lutheran Confessions state.

I do know that the WELS has a much different view of the Lutheran Confessions than does the LCMS and other Confessional syonds. This could be the point of difference on this matter.

PreachersWife2004 · Apr 22, 2009

DaRev said:
I do know that the WELS has a much different view of the Lutheran Confessions than does the LCMS and other Confessional syonds. This could be the point of difference on this matter.

If by different you mean that we don't place it on equal footing with the scriptures then yes, we do view it differently. But we view the confessions as being biblical and scriptural, contrary to your belief that we don't.

Your statement above insinuates that we are not confessional. Are you really jumping on the Insult the WELS Bandwagon, Rev? I expected better from you.

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