PLEASE! lets settle the issue,the final demon thread!

[icarusforde]

Thats my take on it anyways - im open to anyone who has a valid point, and if they have biblical proof that currently spirit filled christians can be inhabited, then by all means, tell me. Its always interesting to challenge your beliefs.

My other question for this thread would be: if you backslide, and fall away from God a bit, while still going through the rituals of a spirit filled christian, then are you open to inhabitation by a demonic presence? Or are you still protected by the fact that you are not completly away from God yet?

P.S: I like throwing controversial issues into bat...

 

[icarusforde]

people: random notice...

heading off for food and then to church for media practice & to train some new peeps, but will check back sometime tonight (mehopes)
GB U all.

 

[pinetree]

Thats my take on it anyways - im open to anyone who has a valid point, and if they have biblical proof that currently spirit filled christians can be inhabited, then by all means, tell me. Its always interesting to challenge your beliefs.

My other question for this thread would be: if you backslide, and fall away from God a bit, while still going through the rituals of a spirit filled christian, then are you open to inhabitation by a demonic presence? Or are you still protected by the fact that you are not completly away from God yet?

P.S: I like throwing controversial issues into bat...

Well,I suppose someone that totally left the Lord,anything can happen..maybe those folks were never really saved?

I have met some who did,and years later returned uninhabited..

I dont think a backslidden Christian can be inhabited.Dont forget,God knows they will slide back to him.

Not that we should do what David did,but look at what David said..

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Seems even in Davids stumble,God was still with him..

He got chastised,but he was still loved by God,and God was still with him.

Dont forget,we stumble,maybe not as bad as David did,but,are we to think whenever we stumble,a demon enters?

I would most definately go to the side of Gods protection to the very end,he tenderly loves us..

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


The prodical son was lovingly received back by his father..

Notice in Romans 7,where Paul was really struggling,what was he struggling with?

Flesh......

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Nice try bro....

My post clearly states what the thorn was,your posts are now getting circular...

Now you are convoluting the issue with did he glory in his weakness,or grace.la la la ..whats the diffference!? Grace came by the weakness anyway..

So from now on,when I see your posts here on the forum..I will stop,and do this.. and say to myself..Hey....there is that guy that thinks Paul had demons inhabiting him..:o

Pine I am exegetically driven.

it pays to know some Greek and Hebrew . . . one can look at the texts and see fairly easy w/out goobs of training and discern what the author meant.

So . . . if you can prove HOW my reasoning is circular . . . then please do so. Correction, if you can, is greatly and always appreciated.

So here:

Does aggelos satana mean "angel of satan"? . . . YEP.

Is aggelos satana the antecedant for "thorn" . . . YEP.

CASE CLOSED. There is NO circular reasoning . . . no philosophical constructed system . . . just simply letting the Bible say what it says. YOU are the one creating hermeneutical gymnastics to try and reason away what it says. Sometimes this is needed when the meaning is NOT clear. Unfortunately though Brother PT . . . the meaning is quite clear. So unless you can show me from syntanx and other linguistical means . . . my point stands.

And tell me this . . . how was a demon IN ME MYSELF a year ago? I felt it leave MY OWN BODY DUDE as the truth of the Cross evicted it. Was I delerious . . .

So there are your two challenges . . . the text which is clear . . . and my experience.

Pax

 

[pinetree]

Pine I am exegetically driven.

it pays to know some Greek and Hebrew . . . one can look at the texts and see fairly easy w/out goobs of training and discern what the author meant.

So . . . if you can prove HOW my reasoning is circular . . . then please do so. Correction, if you can, is greatly and always appreciated.

So here:

Does aggelos satana mean "angel of satan"? . . . YEP.

Is aggelos satana the antecedant for "thorn" . . . YEP.

CASE CLOSED. There is NO circular reasoning . . . no philosophical constructed system . . . just simply letting the Bible say what it says. YOU are the one creating hermeneutical gymnastics to try and reason away what it says. Sometimes this is needed when the meaning is NOT clear. Unfortunately though Brother PT . . . the meaning is quite clear. So unless you can show me from syntanx and other linguistical means . . . my point stands.

And tell me this . . . how was a demon IN ME MYSELF a year ago? I felt it leave MY OWN BODY DUDE as the truth of the Cross evicted it. Was I delerious . . .

So there are your two challenges . . . the text which is clear . . . and my experience.

Pax

I gave you ample evidence of what the thorn was,you are welcome to entertain what you will....

No way,was the thorn an actual demon in Paul,READ THIS!



The kingdom of God is in us..

Luke 17:21
nor will people say, Here it is, or There it is, because the kingdom of God is within you."

Can it be divided?

NO!

They accused Jesus of having a demon,then he said NO!,the kingdom cant be divided!


24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.



Remember how Paul cast out the spirit of divination in that woman,How could he have done that,if he had a demon to?


Paul could not have had a demon either,same principal.
The kingdom cant be divided!



In this portion of scripture,read the words of the demons,look at what the demons said..
Notice how the demons did not recognize there cousins in Paul..
In fact,they recognized Jesus and Pauls authority!


13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15(One day) the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I knowabout Paul, but who are you?" 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

 

[pinetree]

Here is the thorn..

2 Corinthians 11:30
If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.


2 Corinthians 12:5
Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.


2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


2 Corinthians 12:10
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 Timothy 3:11
persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them.

Paul had obviously been receiving wounds,sickness etc,in his flesh,that is the thorn,not a demon inhabiting him.


23Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?
Then he says,he will boast of his weaknesses..
Are you with me so far bro..?
Not above where it says weak,in red
30If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. 32In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.

Then in chapter 12,he goes on to tell us that the thorn was his weaknesses,not a demon.
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
Colossians 1:24
[ Paul's Labor for the Church ] Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

I think this verse is in context,it shows what Paul was talking about.
As well as the verses above..

He never says he had a demon did he?

Nope,he tells us what he was filling up in his flesh..afflictions,infirmities,etc,not demons.

You are misunderstanding one verse, to suit your belief,yet I clearly show what the man with the thorn said what it was..

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I gave you ample evidence of what the thorn was,you are welcome to entertain what you will....

No way,was the thorn an actual demon in Paul,READ THIS!



The kingdom of God is in us..

Luke 17:21
nor will people say, Here it is, or There it is, because the kingdom of God is within you."

Can it be divided?

NO!

They accused Jesus of having a demon,then he said NO!,the kingdom cant be divided!


24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.



Remember how Paul cast out the spirit of divination in that woman,How could he have done that,if he had a demon to?


Paul could not have had a demon either,same principal.
The kingdom cant be divided!



In this portion of scripture,read the words of the demons,look at what the demons said..
Notice how the demons did not recognize there cousins in Paul..
In fact,they recognized Jesus and Pauls authority!


13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15(One day) the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I knowabout Paul, but who are you?" 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

The kingdom of Satan falls PRECISELY because it is divided . . . and don't forget deception.

Say what you want . . . I see what the Greek says . . . there is NO WAY AROUND IT.

You can bounce all over all you want . . . you can philosophize with elaborate sophistry . . . it doesn't change what Paul wrote.

Sorry dude . . . but the rules of grammar rule out your philosophy.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Here is the thorn..

2 Corinthians 11:30
If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.


2 Corinthians 12:5
Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.


2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


2 Corinthians 12:10
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 Timothy 3:11
persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them.

Paul had obviously been receiving wounds,sickness etc,in his flesh,that is the thorn,not a demon inhabiting him.


23Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?
Then he says,he will boast of his weaknesses..
Are you with me so far bro..?
Not above where it says weak,in red
30If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. 32In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.

Then in chapter 12,he goes on to tell us that the thorn was his weaknesses,not a demon.
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
Colossians 1:24
[ Paul's Labor for the Church ] Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

I think this verse is in context,it shows what Paul was talking about.
As well as the verses above..

He never says he had a demon did he?

Nope,he tells us what he was filling up in his flesh..afflictions,infirmities,etc,not demons.

You are misunderstanding one verse, to suit your belief,yet I clearly show what the man with the thorn said what it was..

You already posted this . . . and I already answered it.

The thorn is defined in the RULES OF ANTECEDANT . . . (the way that language works bro) and the antecedant is aggelos satana. YOU CANNOT CHANGE THIS NO MATTER HOW YOU TRY.

I am sorry Pine . . . Greek is precise . . . give me something better than your attempts . . . give me some Greek . . . give me some syntax . . . give me something that points to the antecedant rules being wrong. If you cannot . . . then my point stands. I have given the Greek and the rules . . . if you cannot go here . . . then you cannot disprove it or show it to be erroneous. But I would glady accept correction if you can . . .

 

[pinetree]

The kingdom of Satan falls PRECISELY because it is divided . . . and don't forget deception.

Say what you want . . . I see what the Greek says . . . there is NO WAY AROUND IT.

You can bounce all over all you want . . . you can philosophize with elaborate sophistry . . . it doesn't change what Paul wrote.

Sorry dude . . . but the rules of grammar rule out your philosophy.

sorry dude..

I gave you a whole lot more scripture,than your misrepresentation of the text.

You are however free to believe Paul was possessed,inhabited,or entered.

The thorn was explained....

The messenger gave Paul blows,like in a fight,and that he received into his body,not the messenger..

A messenger gave him the thorn.

Would God allow an evil spirit to enter his son?

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

sorry dude..

I gave you a whole lot more scripture,than your misrepresentation of the text.

You are however free to believe Paul was possessed,inhabited,or entered.

The thorn was explained....

The messenger gave Paul blows,like in a fight,and that he received into his body,not the messenger..

Um . . . the thorn, the angel of Satan, was IN HIS FLESH. Not the EFFECT of the thorn.

Sorry chief but, as I said, the Greek is quite clear. All you have is your English and your presupposition . . . I am looking at the Greek . . . and Greek is not unclear bro.

There is nothing FOR misrepresentation . . . it is clear as day.

 

[pinetree]

You already posted this . . . and I already answered it.

The thorn is defined in the RULES OF ANTECEDANT . . . (the way that language works bro) and the antecedant is aggelos satana. YOU CANNOT CHANGE THIS NO MATTER HOW YOU TRY.

I am sorry Pine . . . Greek is precise . . . give me something better than your attempts . . . give me some Greek . . . give me some syntax . . . give me something that points to the antecedant rules being wrong. If you cannot . . . then my point stands. I have given the Greek and the rules . . . if you cannot go here . . . then you cannot disprove it or show it to be erroneous. But I would glady accept correction if you can . . .

Say,curious about something..

Do you think a woman is saved through childbirth?

Here is a plain and simple verse to apply your rule of being of being syntactically correct to.

1 Timothy 2:15
But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

 

[FoundInGrace]

But it is the flesh! That's what the bible says! Yes the devil entices and lies and deceives and those who are walking in the flesh and not the spirit are more susseptible to believing these lies which will then cause them to go deeper and deeper into the things of the flesh. But the answer is Jesus...Jesus is the way the TRUTH and the life!

Sometimes I am amazed at how complicated people make this!

I wish it were only the flesh.

If you have a stronghold of sin and sin continually in an area of your life then that gives the devil a foothold. It starts out with our own evil desires and we do have a choice back then but if you get deeper into it then the choice starts getting less simple. Your heart gets hardened, your conscience seared and later if you start wanting out you have no idea what that is.

It may seem simple to you from where you are in life now but if you've come out of addictions then you know when you are in it choices are clouded and it is unrealistic and cruel even to insist to someone caught in the depths of it that all they need to do is make the right choice... when you don't have the knowledge you can't choose rightly even when you want to. I agree with you in the essence of what you are saying but sometimes you have to get rid of some darkness so you can see which path to take. Then and only then does some clarity come.


Nothing wrong with simple but to get to the simple choice you talk about oftentimes what is needed is to clean out some other stuff (and that can mean breaking down strongholds etc)

I agree Jesus is the way out, the truth, He's great at cleaning out stuff

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Say,curious about something..

Do you think a woman is saved through childbirth?

Here is a plain and simple verse to apply your rule of being of being syntactically correct to.

1 Timothy 2:15
But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

1. Nice try at a smoke screen

2. The NASB rendition is the best . . . saved is not salvation . . . but preservation. In context dealing with Eve, I see it refering to the deception wrought in Eve . . . here the preservation is in keeping the woman in her function as the man in his. Notice it is in faith love sanctity and self-restraint. So it is with both man and woman . . . keep your roles and you will be preserved from deception.

The issue here is not what does the text SAY . . . but what does it MEAN in light of soteriology. We can see clearly that it says she is preserved by childbirth . . . the question is what does that MEAN.

Anyhow . . . it doesn't change Corinthians. The question in our subject passage is what does it SAY . . . then based on that you then determine what does it MEAN. Try to stick to the text. My point still stands.

 

[pinetree]

t

1. Nice try at a smoke screen

2. The NASB rendition is the best . . . saved is not salvation . . . but preservation. In context dealing with Eve, I see it refering to the deception wrought in Eve . . . here the preservation is in keeping the woman in her function as the man in his. Notice it is in faith love sanctity and self-restraint. So it is with both man and woman . . . keep your roles and you will be preserved from deception.

The issue here is not what does the text SAY . . . but what does it MEAN in light of soteriology. We can see clearly that it says she is preserved by childbirth . . . the question is what does that MEAN.

Anyhow . . . it doesn't change Corinthians. The question in our subject passage is what does it SAY . . . then based on that you then determine what does it MEAN. Try to stick to the text. My point still stands.

oohhhhhhhh,now we play that game!

Sorry but you are wrong. It means saved! Plain and simple,that is how it reads..

Greek = sozo! Saved!

Now you say it does not change the meaning of Corinthians..hhmmmmm...so it sounds liks you are looking to the rest of scripture to get more meaning,but you wont do that with the thorn verse.(context)
With that you want to use syntactically correctness,but you dont with the childbearing verse..hhmmmm.I thought you go by the exact greek,and sentence structure!

Context would dictate that the chosen vessel,the warrior that Paul was,indicates he could not have a demon,as we see in acts,the demons recognized Pauls authority,along with that of Jesus..

When they accused Jesus of having a demon,he said no,the kingdom cant be divided,that is true for Paul to,who we know also cast out demons.
Here is another...plain and simple verse...

Are we justrified by works and faith,not faith alone?

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

If we dont go to other portions of scripture to learn what things mean,like I did with the thorn verse,
then that means if we use your approach to scripture,we have to believe a woman is saved through childbirth,and Paul was wrong,James was right,and we are saved by works also,which is totally contrary to grace,and Pauls writings.

Thats because you only want to start at the sentence,and end with the period.If you do that with the 2 verses I posted James 2:24 and 1 Timothy 2:15,thats the only conclusion one can come up with.

 

[enoch son]

Pine talking about beating your head on a wall! the devil made me do it! It's the same thing adam said about eve and eve said about the serpent. It's all ways some one else. I've got to go and kept my brother.

 

[Cassidy]

I wish it were only the flesh.

If you have a stronghold of sin and sin continually in an area of your life then that gives the devil a foothold. It starts out with our own evil desires and we do have a choice back then but if you get deeper into it then the choice starts getting less simple. Your heart gets hardened, your conscience seared and later if you start wanting out you have no idea what that is.

It may seem simple to you from where you are in life now but if you've come out of addictions then you know when you are in it choices are clouded and it is unrealistic and cruel even to insist to someone caught in the depths of it that all they need to do is make the right choice... when you don't have the knowledge you can't choose rightly even when you want to. I agree with you in the essence of what you are saying but sometimes you have to get rid of some darkness so you can see which path to take. Then and only then does some clarity come.


Nothing wrong with simple but to get to the simple choice you talk about oftentimes what is needed is to clean out some other stuff (and that can mean breaking down strongholds etc)

I agree Jesus is the way out, the truth, He's great at cleaning out stuff

I can see what you're saying, about strongholds but the strongholds come from the lies and the deceit from Satan...which would keep bombarding them with the same lies and deceit, to the point where they don't know what is truth anymore. I don't believe that any of this comes from Satan INHABITING them though...it comes from being in the world...Satan is in the world...But if God be in them, God is stronger than he in the world. That's what the bible says.

I do believe that the prodical son may have been in that position...so low that he couldn't get up! He had nothing! But one thing was on his side, he was his father's son! And the only place that he could go, is back to the father!

Sons and daughters of the living God WILL come back to the father...because they are sons and daughters of the living God. Sometimes God allows us to think we know better...he allows us to stumble and become as low as a snakes naval. He allows Satan to kick us while we're down too...just so we learn that we need to rely on the father! Without the father we have nothing...and we are nothing...we are lost (like the prodical son). But remember about the shepherd and the lost sheep?...he will leave the 99 and go and bring the 1 back that has gone astray...the one that is deep in sin. A true born again child of God will NOT continue in their sin ...because of who they are!

The key is...for them to know...who they are in Christ! All this airy fairy demon casting...has no bearing on this!

 

[pinetree]

Pine talking about beating your head on a wall! the devil made me do it! It's the same thing adam said about eve and eve said about the serpent. It's all ways some one else. I've got to go and kept my brother.

Good to see ya!

 

[pinetree]

I can see what you're saying, about strongholds but the strongholds come from the lies and the deceit from Satan...which would keep bombarding them with the same lies and deceit, to the point where they don't know what is truth anymore. I don't believe that any of this comes from Satan INHABITING them though...it comes from being in the world...Satan is in the world...But if God be in them, God is stronger than he in the world. That's what the bible says.

I do believe that the prodical son may have been in that position...so low that he couldn't get up! He had nothing! But one thing was on his side, he was his father's son! And the only place that he could go, is back to the father!

Sons and daughters of the living God WILL come back to the father...because they are sons and daughters of the living God. Sometimes God allows us to think we know better...he allows us to stumble and become as low as a snakes naval. He allows Satan to kick us while we're down too...just so we learn that we need to rely on the father! Without the father we have nothing...and we are nothing...we are lost (like the prodical son). But remember about the shepherd and the lost sheep?...he will leave the 99 and go and bring the 1 back that has gone astray...the one that is deep in sin. A true born again child of God will NOT continue in their sin ...because of who they are!

The key is...for them to know...who they are in Christ! All this airy fairy demon casting...has no bearing on this!

7But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. 8We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. 10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

t
oohhhhhhhh,now we play that game!

Sorry but you are wrong. It means saved! Plain and simple,that is how it reads..

Greek = sozo! Saved!

Now you say it does not change the meaning of Corinthians..hhmmmmm...so it sounds liks you are looking to the rest of scripture to get more meaning,but you wont do that with the thorn verse.(context)
With that you want to use syntactically correctness,but you dont with the childbearing verse..hhmmmm.I thought you go by the exact greek,and sentence structure!

Context would dictate that the chosen vessel,the warrior that Paul was,indicates he could not have a demon,as we see in acts,the demons recognized Pauls authority,along with that of Jesus..

When they accused Jesus of having a demon,he said no,the kingdom cant be divided,that is true for Paul to,who we know also cast out demons.
Here is another...plain and simple verse...

Are we justrified by works and faith,not faith alone?

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

If we dont go to other portions of scripture to learn what things mean,like I did with the thorn verse,
then that means if we use your approach to scripture,we have to believe a woman is saved through childbirth,and Paul was wrong,James was right,and we are saved by works also,which is totally contrary to grace,and Pauls writings.

Thats because you only want to start at the sentence,and end with the period.If you do that with the 2 verses I posted James 2:24 and 1 Timothy 2:15,thats the only conclusion one can come up with.

unfortunately sozo is a word group and is variously translated and does not always connote the forensic peculiar sense of objective salvation. Sorry.

With that you want to use syntactically correctness,but you dont with the childbearing verse..hhmmmm.I thought you go by the exact greek,and sentence structure!

Seems like you are missing the logic of hermeneutics. You and I both agree on what the Childbirth text SAYS . . . and we agree that it cannot be taken at face value because of the plethora of texts that declare salvation as by grace. So we agree on step one and then move to step two, what the text means.
Here is why your attempt does not work . . . with the thorn passage you and I do not agree at the first step of what it says. I take it at face value and you, per your a priori, say that it doesn't even say what it says.

So your attempt is akin to the errant logic of category confusion . . . you are mixing the proverbial apples and oranges.

The problem is that there are no CLEAR didactic portions of scripture that make a believer being indwelt by an evil spirit impossible. You have many texts where you draw inferences . . . but these inferences that you draw are not necessary and are even hermeneutically errant.

Take your "kingdom" passage . . . it has NOTHING to do with a Christian having a demon . . . it has to do with the power of ONE demon CASTING OUT another demon. THAT is the contextual meaning. Hence, both being of the kingdom of Satan you have satan casting out satan. Unfortunately that has NOTHING to do with Paul casting a demon out of someone . . . cause even if he has a demon in him . . . it is not the demon casting out another demon . . . it is PAUL casting out the demon . . . whether he has one in him or not is totally irrelevant to the passage.

So, if there are no clear texts that say that a person CAN have a demon . . and none that say that they cannot .. . then we are on even ground . . . and it is up to preference and experience.

BUT this is NOT the case . . . I have supplied you with a CLEAR text where Paul says he had a messanger of satan in his flesh . . . not the EFFECTS . . . but the messanger itself.

So, at step one . . . it says what it says . . . and here is where you are arguing with grammar . . . I am not arguing with the grammar of the childbirth passage . . . so I am QUITE consistent.

PT, I appreciate your zealousy . . . unfortuntately if someone came to you and genuninely had this sort of a problem . . . you would be powerless to help because of your presupposition. You would throw at them sanctification principles to kill sin . . . when the root of the issue is not even themselves.

I have been walking steadily in Christ now for about a decade . . . and last year I had a demon IN ME . . . felt it leave my body as it released.

Anywhoo . . . just remember . . . you cannot sauy that we have no clear passage anymore . . . we do indeed. You just dont agree with the grammar.

pax

MTK

 

[pinetree]

unfortunately sozo is a word group and is variously translated and does not always connote the forensic peculiar sense of objective salvation. Sorry.



Seems like you are missing the logic of hermeneutics. You and I both agree on what the Childbirth text SAYS . . . and we agree that it cannot be taken at face value because of the plethora of texts that declare salvation as by grace. So we agree on step one and then move to step two, what the text means.
Here is why your attempt does not work . . . with the thorn passage you and I do not agree at the first step of what it says. I take it at face value and you, per your a priori, say that it doesn't even say what it says.

So your attempt is akin to the errant logic of category confusion . . . you are mixing the proverbial apples and oranges.

The problem is that there are no CLEAR didactic portions of scripture that make a believer being indwelt by an evil spirit impossible. You have many texts where you draw inferences . . . but these inferences that you draw are not necessary and are even hermeneutically errant.

Take your "kingdom" passage . . . it has NOTHING to do with a Christian having a demon . . . it has to do with the power of ONE demon CASTING OUT another demon. THAT is the contextual meaning. Hence, both being of the kingdom of Satan you have satan casting out satan. Unfortunately that has NOTHING to do with Paul casting a demon out of someone . . . cause even if he has a demon in him . . . it is not the demon casting out another demon . . . it is PAUL casting out the demon . . . whether he has one in him or not is totally irrelevant to the passage.

So, if there are no clear texts that say that a person CAN have a demon . . and none that say that they cannot .. . then we are on even ground . . . and it is up to preference and experience.

BUT this is NOT the case . . . I have supplied you with a CLEAR text where Paul says he had a messanger of satan in his flesh . . . not the EFFECTS . . . but the messanger itself.

So, at step one . . . it says what it says . . . and here is where you are arguing with grammar . . . I am not arguing with the grammar of the childbirth passage . . . so I am QUITE consistent.

PT, I appreciate your zealousy . . . unfortuntately if someone came to you and genuninely had this sort of a problem . . . you would be powerless to help because of your presupposition. You would throw at them sanctification principles to kill sin . . . when the root of the issue is not even themselves.

I have been walking steadily in Christ now for about a decade . . . and last year I had a demon IN ME . . . felt it leave my body as it released.

Anywhoo . . . just remember . . . you cannot sauy that we have no clear passage anymore . . . we do indeed. You just dont agree with the grammar.

pax

MTK

Nope..sorry bro,but nothing you say here changes the point I raised.


According to your methodology,we must believe that we are justified by faith and works,and a woman is saved through childbirth.

According to your "exact greek" as you say,we must hold to the fact that sozo means saved,no getting around it.

You were very imphatic about the exact meaning in the thorn verse...why not with sozo?


Boy oh boy,you have alot of flexibility...,but not with the thorn verse! Seems like a double standard..

So as it stands now I can only conclude that you must think that..

A woman is saved (sozo) through childbearing,we are justified through faith AND works,and Paul was inhabited by demons.

James 2:24 is quite clear,and in context to the chapter.So if you are going to just look at those few words,there is no other answer it is faith and works...
Unless of course we do the smart thing,and look to other passages to learn more about faith and works,like we should do in the Pauls alledged inhabitation issue.

You cant have apples and oranges...


As per your words in red above....

Nope,it was a good example of how a christian cant cast out demons,while inhabited by them.That is the context.
Right after Jesus cast one out ,he was acused of having a demon,he said no,lest the kingdom be divided,same thing for Paul.

As per your words above in green..

We are not on even ground,because you are adding to scripture,by saying something that is not in there.There is not one single verse to show Christian inhabitation.Thats proof enough right there,we have a head covering teaching,but nothing obout inhabitation..hhmmm

You said about being saved by childbearing,you looked to other passages,,well,... when you looked to find other inhabitation verses,what did you find? Nothing!

Yet what we do find in the scriptures, is Paul's description of the thorn,,afflictions,infirmities weakness.He did not say he had a demon.It clearly confirms my views,the thorn was the blows received,not the actual afflictor in him.

So if your going my route with the childbearing verse,of looking elsewhere to learn,then why not realize when you look elsewhere to learn more,there is nothing there..no inhabitation for ths Spirit filled believer,but there is a plethora of verses that are the antithesis of Christian inhabitiation..IE..the kingdom divided scriptures.,we are his temple,spirit filled etc..

CASE CLOSED!

Thanks,nice chatting.

Ps,curious your views on James 2:24.