PLEASE! lets settle the issue,the final demon thread!

[pinetree]

My op sure shows alot more scripture than we are getting from the bible bingo crowd..

We are one Spirit with the Lord!

Not the devil...:o

 

[rushingwind62]

no,those are from a post by Optimax..
see post 27..

Ps.Optimax is far from a judgemental brother.

OPPS!!! Sorry brother, my mistake...I had a doh moment

 

[edie19]

MOD HAT ON​

This thread has been moved to the debate subforum as it is a more appropriate spot for the discussion.

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[rushingwind62]

My op sure shows alot more scripture than we are getting from the bible bingo crowd..

We are one Spirit with the Lord!

Not the devil...:o

Granted, you did use a lot of scripture in your OP, but none of it says one word about a believer being possessed.

 

[BlackJack77]

With all due respect brother Pinetree, there has not been a "Scriptural silence" on this thread much less an "eerie Scriptural silence." What there is though is a lot of dismissal of Scripture, which in my opinion is based on not only naivety of the demonic spirit realm and its potential effect on believers which I believe is rooted in bias, either developed on your own (which is doubtful) or absorbed from another teacher. (more than likely.) Again, with all due respect brother Pinetree, I think it would be a good idea to take it before the Lord and ask Him to reveal the truth to you. There is plenty of Scripture I am sure He can and will reveal to you, IF you approach Him with a contrite heart, earnestly desiring to know. As long as you have this bias, you won't be able to "see" the Scripture, as is evident in this thread. Sincerely in Christ, Jack

Thats a fair point..

I have often quoted that verse myself,that Jesus said and did more..

But so far,on the thread,we are just seeing the deliverance ministries teachings..

Some of the very supporters of the unwritten doctrine,often quote alot of scripture when talking about other subjects here..

Yet,on this thread,there is an eerie scriptural silence...

Thanks for posting..

 

[pinetree]

OPPS!!! Sorry brother, my mistake...I had a doh moment

no big deal bro..

I am 24 hours a day in doh mode..

 

[pinetree]

Granted, you did use a lot of scripture in your OP, but none of it says one word about a believer being possessed.

they sure say who we are...

If the pigs ran off the cliff....

Is not that same Jesus in us?

How can we be divided?

The kingdom in us cant be...

Anyway,,just looking for some biblical proof,of the unwritten doctrine..

 

[pinetree]

With all due respect brother Pinetree, there has not been a "Scriptural silence" on this thread much less an "eerie Scriptural silence." What there is though is a lot of dismissal of Scripture, which in my opinion is based on not only naivety of the demonic spirit realm and its potential effect on believers which I believe is rooted in bias, either developed on your own (which is doubtful) or absorbed from another teacher. (more than likely.) Again, with all due respect brother Pinetree, I think it would be a good idea to take it before the Lord and ask Him to reveal the truth to you. There is plenty of Scripture I am sure He can and will reveal to you, IF you approach Him with a contrite heart, earnestly desiring to know. As long as you have this bias, you won't be able to "see" the Scripture, as is evident in this thread. Sincerely in Christ, Jack

Thank you for your input.

Nice to meet you..

As they say..maybe next time we can meet under a more pleasant subject..

 

[BlackJack77]

Amen. This is a good post. A good point that not all things are written in Scripture. The test in such a case though, is whether or not something agrees or disagrees with Scripture. Although in this case, there is Scriptural support. Sincerely in Christ, Jack

Ya' know, GOD gave us eyes, feelings, emotions, common sense, and a brain! Did HE give us these things and not want us to use them? Somethings are not talked about in scripture or made clear. If everything was talked about in scripture, the bible would be the size of our homes or probably much larger. Look in the last ch of John, the writer writes, "Jesus did many other things which are not written here." So we only caught a glimpse of Jesus in the written word. LIFE is full of many unexplained things and just because they are unexplained or not in God's word does not mean they don't exsist or that something doesn't happen. Whether it be from demon possession of a believer or to someone who has two sets of DNA in their body. I believe we are to live a balanced life and in my opinion too many are so Heavenly minded that they are no earthly good.

 

[BlackJack77]

Indeed brother. And thanks for the warm greeting. Sincerely in Christ, Jack

Thank you for your input.

Nice to meet you..

As they say..maybe next time we can meet under a more pleasant subject..

 

[rushingwind62]

they sure say who we are...

If the pigs ran off the cliff....

Is not that same Jesus in us?

How can we be divided?

The kingdom in us cant be...

Anyway,,just looking for some biblical proof,of the unwritten doctrine..

Many of those scriptures do say who we CAN be in Christ. And I believe we are ALL striving to be all we can be in Christ. But we all fall short of the glory of God no matter how hard we strive. There are many doctrines, teachings, and interpetations out there concerning this and many other issues. And though we disagree on this subject, I just want to say, I have the utmost respect for you. You seem to be well rooted in God's word and very passionate about what you believe. That is a good thing my friend. I am the same way. We could argue and debate this til we turn blue in the face. But I think we are both going to stand our ground on this one. And though I have enjoyed the spar with you on this matter, I am going to agree to disagree with you and leave it at that. God be with you brother in all you do and say!....Rob

 

[KleinerApfel]

Pinetree, those of us saying that a Christian can experience difficulties through evil spirits influencing them would generally not use the word "inhabited" or "possessed" as you have done here to describe what happens in such a situation.

I think we all, on either side of the issue, would agree that there are "voices" that influence us in our emotional and thought life, wouldn't we? Whether we literally hear them or not is immaterial - it's the effect they have that shows they exist.

The mind is the major battle ground where the enemy influences us - if he can entice us to sin or lie and frighten us out of the faith-filled response we are aiming for, then we are influenced to behave in ways that go counter to our desire to know and follow Christ.

If there is a particular area where we stumble repeatedly and painfully over a length of time and remain unable to walk straight in that area, then we might acknowledge there could be a demonic influence or stronghold affecting us.

We overcome through the blood of the Lamb and word of our testimony.
Experience is not null and void unless it directly contradicts scripture, and I do not see that demonic influence of Christians can be placed in that category.

As someone else pointed out, we have five senses given us by God for good use, we have emotions, we have experiences, we have a mind to perceive, interpret and use all these things as God's gifts to enable us to make sense of the world we live in. These things are not inherently bad, (although some Greek philosophers thought so, to the point that they even considered all matter to be evil.)

 

[Tobias]

If God's Word were to clearly state that Christians can't be inhabited by demons, then that is what we all would believe. But as it is, people fall on both sides with this issue because it comes down to theology and interpretation rather than God being specific about His answer.


Meanwhile, what we see happening is thousands of people are believing this theology because the demons inside of them are convincing them it is true. First they are told the theology that all you have to do is say a simple "Sinner's Prayer", and you are assured salvation no matter what (OSAS). Then they are taught that "Christians can't have demons" -- and voilà, we have some of the most reprobate sinners running around convinced that there is no help for them available in Deliverance because once upon a time long ago they "accepted Christ" to avoid missing the Rapture (or some such mass marketing scheme).


So here's a couple of related questions:

(1) Can a person who thinks they are a Christian but isn't really have a demon?

(2) Can a backslidden Christian have a demon?

(3) Can a professing Christian who inadvertently stumbles get a demon?


I suppose too we need to clear up the difference between possession and oppression. The Apostle Paul was clearly oppressed by one, saying that a messenger of satan was sent to buffet him. Are we all in agreement that a Christian can be oppressed by a demon? As a former deliverance minister, even I have a difficult time discerning the difference between oppression and possession.

I find it counter productive and in fact very irresponsible to go around stating the theology that "A Christian cannot be possessed"; when this is a simplified summery of a complex issue that is in this form damaging to many people who otherwise could be helped.

 

[Optimax]

These were your words

Those were my words and they are not judgmental.

The greatest fight we all have is the war between walking by faith and walking by the senses.

The items I posted were things I learned in my experience of life.

The word is always right no matter how other things like feelings, emotions, what people and other voices say, and PERSONAL EXPERIENCES say.

When the word says resist the devil and the devil will flee that is reality.

Some may say I resisted and he didn't flee. That is calling God a liar.

Therefore, either there was no resistance or the devil did flee. But because there was no corresponding feeling to verify the flight, the conclusion was that the devil did not flee.

The reason there was no resistance would be a lack of knowledge of what resisting the devil is. The word says that God's people perish for lack of knowledge.

 

[pinetree]

Many of those scriptures do say who we CAN be in Christ. And I believe we are ALL striving to be all we can be in Christ. But we all fall short of the glory of God no matter how hard we strive. There are many doctrines, teachings, and interpetations out there concerning this and many other issues. And though we disagree on this subject, I just want to say, I have the utmost respect for you. You seem to be well rooted in God's word and very passionate about what you believe. That is a good thing my friend. I am the same way. We could argue and debate this til we turn blue in the face. But I think we are both going to stand our ground on this one. And though I have enjoyed the spar with you on this matter, I am going to agree to disagree with you and leave it at that. God be with you brother in all you do and say!....Rob

Hey thanks bro!
Sure thing..iron sharpens iron..

And it is good to have a friendly tussle!

I appreciate your stance too.

It was nice to have met you..

Till we meet again.. take care...

 

[pinetree]

Pinetree, those of us saying that a Christian can experience difficulties through evil spirits influencing them would generally not use the word "inhabited" or "possessed" as you have done here to describe what happens in such a situation.

I think we all, on either side of the issue, would agree that there are "voices" that influence us in our emotional and thought life, wouldn't we? Whether we literally hear them or not is immaterial - it's the effect they have that shows they exist.

The mind is the major battle ground where the enemy influences us - if he can entice us to sin or lie and frighten us out of the faith-filled response we are aiming for, then we are influenced to behave in ways that go counter to our desire to know and follow Christ.

If there is a particular area where we stumble repeatedly and painfully over a length of time and remain unable to walk straight in that area, then we might acknowledge there could be a demonic influence or stronghold affecting us.

We overcome through the blood of the Lamb and word of our testimony.
Experience is not null and void unless it directly contradicts scripture, and I do not see that demonic influence of Christians can be placed in that category.

As someone else pointed out, we have five senses given us by God for good use, we have emotions, we have experiences, we have a mind to perceive, interpret and use all these things as God's gifts to enable us to make sense of the world we live in. These things are not inherently bad, (although some Greek philosophers thought so, to the point that they even considered all matter to be evil.)

I understand your point.
Sure,we go through warfare,but that is not inhabitaion,or possession..
Take care,,pinetree.

 

[pinetree]

Those were my words and they are not judgmental.

The greatest fight we all have is the war between walking by faith and walking by the senses.

The items I posted were things I learned in my experience of life.

The word is always right no matter how other things like feelings, emotions, what people and other voices say, and PERSONAL EXPERIENCES say.

When the word says resist the devil and the devil will flee that is reality.

Some may say I resisted and he didn't flee. That is calling God a liar.

Therefore, either there was no resistance or the devil did flee. But because there was no corresponding feeling to verify the flight, the conclusion was that the devil did not flee.

The reason there was no resistance would be a lack of knowledge of what resisting the devil is. The word says that God's people perish for lack of knowledge.

yup..
I have seen people start naming "families" of spirits too..:o

Nothing has changed ..

I heard this stuff 25 years ago.

And I have seen saints get negatively affected by this too...

 

[pinetree]

If God's Word were to clearly state that Christians can't be inhabited by demons, then that is what we all would believe. But as it is, people fall on both sides with this issue because it comes down to theology and interpretation rather than God being specific about His answer.


Meanwhile, what we see happening is thousands of people are believing this theology because the demons inside of them are convincing them it is true. First they are told the theology that all you have to do is say a simple "Sinner's Prayer", and you are assured salvation no matter what (OSAS). Then they are taught that "Christians can't have demons" -- and voilà, we have some of the most reprobate sinners running around convinced that there is no help for them available in Deliverance because once upon a time long ago they "accepted Christ" to avoid missing the Rapture (or some such mass marketing scheme).


So here's a couple of related questions:

(1) Can a person who thinks they are a Christian but isn't really have a demon?

(2) Can a backslidden Christian have a demon?

(3) Can a professing Christian who inadvertently stumbles get a demon?


I suppose too we need to clear up the difference between possession and oppression. The Apostle Paul was clearly oppressed by one, saying that a messenger of satan was sent to buffet him. Are we all in agreement that a Christian can be oppressed by a demon? As a former deliverance minister, even I have a difficult time discerning the difference between oppression and possession.

I find it counter productive and in fact very irresponsible to go around stating the theology that "A Christian cannot be possessed"; when this is a simplified summery of a complex issue that is in this form damaging to many people who otherwise could be helped.

Interesting points..

 

[rushingwind62]

The greatest fight we all have is the war between walking by faith and walking by the senses.

The items I posted were things I learned in my experience of life.

If God did not intend for us to use our senses, why were we created with them? After all we are created in God's likeness. He too must have these senses. I believe we are to live balanced lives. We are spiritual beings, yet we live in this world and there must be a balance. Our senses are a counter balance to our faith and our faith is a counter balance to our senses. That is where our war is, walking on that fine line. We are to use everything God has gave us in our walk with Him, including our intellect.

I understand that you are speaking from your experience. Where I have a problem is when we belittle someone elses experience. Maybe you and I have never experienced demon possession as a believer. But just because we have never experienced it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Others have experienced it. We tend to judge others by our own experiences and we aren't suppose to. Biblically we aren't suppose to. God created us as individuals and our experiences is what makes us different. And rather than belittling (intentionally or unintentionally) someone, we should find ways to encourage them to get through their crisis whatever it may be.

 

[Optimax]

I suppose too we need to clear up the difference between possession and oppression. The Apostle Paul was clearly oppressed by one, saying that a messenger of satan was sent to buffet him. Are we all in agreement that a Christian can be oppressed by a demon? As a former deliverance minister, even I have a difficult time discerning the difference between oppression and possession.

Possession is internal.

Oppression, Obsession, Fear, and Depression are external administered by thoughts playing on emotions and feelings.