'Please leave': why the Sydney archbishop's same-sex marriage message has Anglicans rattled

charsan · Oct 26, 2019

Love is not accepting everyone and everything that is hate and not the Love of Christ. The love of Christ and the Bible is to say something is wrong when it is wrong. Homosexuality is wrong as God says several places in the Bible and the Fathers teach how wrong that is. The loving thing to do is not to let people who want to celebrate sin in but the loving thing to do is to tell them that it is wrong and to be a true follower of Christ they must leave the idea that sin is great behind. The Archbishop was brave for standing up for truth.

charsan · Oct 26, 2019

JacksBratt said:
I think that churches, for the most part, will accept anyone, the way they are, if they come for forgiveness, teaching, repentance, salvation... whatever.... As they should.
Long as people are not distracting from the service or the peace of the church, anyone can come and observe, and participate in the functions... as they are set out.

But to come to a Christian church and ask to be joined as a marriage, in a place of God that states that a marriage is between a man and a woman... is a bit odd.

That's like going to a vegan restaurant and demanding some meat... it doesn't make sense.

Exactly

charsan · Oct 26, 2019

Steven Beck said:
Satan wants to destroy the church and make Christians irrelevant. That is the reason.

Satan is doing a great job with the mainline Churches were they are abandoning Christ at the speed of light

zippy2006 · Oct 26, 2019

Anthony2019 said:
I do not see anything cowardly about taking up Jesus's commandment to follow the Golden Rule.

True.

It is very easy to argue with others and avoid those we don't agree with.

No, not necessarily.

It is much harder to befriend those we don't get along with with because they challenge our own prejudices and make us feel uncomfortable.

It is hard to be friends with those you have nothing in common with, and such friendships rarely last.

It is very easy to dismiss someone on the grounds that they are mistaken,

If you believe someone is mistaken you can try to correct them or dismiss them. It's not really a question of ease.

...but it takes an incredible amount of grace to listen to another's story and to develop empathy with someone whose journey we have never walked.

No, not really. We tend to be interested in different people and different cultures. This is why, for example, historical fiction is a genre and documentaries are so popular.

It takes a lot of courage to forgive someone who has offended us,

Perhaps. It's hard to say whether forgiveness requires courage, per se.

...but it takes even more work and effort to accept, love and care for someone as a brother or sister in Christ.

If they have offended us this may be difficult. In other cases it may be quite easy.

I seek to love Christ and to love my neighbour. It is the standard by which I live and by which I will be judged.

Truth and justice are also Christian values, and they tend to inform our love.

I don't always succeed in getting it right, but living by the Golden Rule is by no means a soft option and certainly not what I would describe as being "cowardly".

True again.

Philip_B · Oct 26, 2019

Steven Beck said:
I wonder how the Jensons feel. Good man Peter.

I am not sure why that matters?

Steven Beck · Oct 26, 2019

Anthony2019 said:
I do not see anything cowardly about taking up Jesus's commandment to follow the Golden Rule.
It is very easy to argue with others and avoid those we don't agree with. It is much harder to befriend those we don't get along with with because they challenge our own prejudices and make us feel uncomfortable. It is very easy to dismiss someone on the grounds that they are mistaken, but it takes an incredible amount of grace to listen to another's story and to develop empathy with someone whose journey we have never walked. It takes a lot of courage to forgive someone who has offended us, but it takes even more work and effort to accept, love and care for someone as a brother or sister in Christ.
I seek to love Christ and to love my neighbour. It is the standard by which I live and by which I will be judged. I don't always succeed in getting it right, but living by the Golden Rule is by no means a soft option and certainly not what I would describe as being "cowardly".

First up I want to apologize for calling you a coward. That was stupid on my part.

I want to use an analogy. We have two teams, Satan's team and Jesus' team. The human race is either on one side or the other. Let us take football (soccer). You have two teams say ManU and ManC.
What would happen if the manager or players of ManC started telling the manager and players of ManU how to play and what to do? What do you think would happen if the manager of ManU rocked up to ManC and demanded to be the manager whilst still managing ManU? It is not going to happen is it?
So here we are with our two teams, S & J and players on the S team are demanding that us on J's team play by their rules and accept their players whilst still playing on S team. How stupid is that? When they transfer across by the rules then that is ok. But here you are a supposed player on the J team sticking up for the right of those on S's team to play on our team. Do you see the problem?

Steven Beck · Oct 26, 2019

Philip_B said:
I am not sure why that matters?

Then don't let it bother you.

Paidiske · Oct 26, 2019

Brightmoon said:
I’m Episcopalian my church will just welcome them and I’m fine with that.

You're in communion with us, so it's your church he just told people to "please leave."

grampster said:
My comment is with respect to you, ma'am. Jesus cleared the temple of the money changers and I rather don't believe he took into account appropriately the severe consequences. The problem with many Christians today is that we are too ready and willing to accept sin as a charitable, Christian thing. We all sin...for sure. But we are to own up to it and repent of it, not defend it.

Jesus did not tell the adulterous woman to "Go, keep sinning and be more inclusive and accepting". Jesus told her to go and sin no more.

The Archbishop of Sydney is not Jesus, and people finding their way on questions of sexuality and marriage are not the money-changers. I'm not saying we need to accept sin, but I'm saying that in the way we talk about things, we need to take care not to harm people.

Steven Beck said:
Nope the church is to be separate from the world. ...

The church NEVER navigates divisions, its job is to apply the CROSS. We love the sinner but not the sin. The sinner if he/she does not repent will have a fiery eternity.

Your job in the church is to apply the GOSPEL not be a social justice warrior.

I'm not talking about the Church vs. the world. I'm talking about huge social change in which the Church - by which I mean the diversity of all its members - is caught up. We have no choice but to navigate that social change. And yes, we need to navigate it with the cross as our pole star (to extend the metaphor) but we can't refuse to deal with the new ideas, new understandings, new language and behaviours which our own members are - to a greater or lesser extent - integrating into their own.

And since applying the gospel inevitably results in seeking social justice, I'm really not buying into the dichotomies you present here.

eclipsenow said:
Basic integrity of office might also want to hold to the 39 Articles and at least attempt to endorse the plain teaching of Scripture on this matter.

The only thing the 39 Articles have to say about marriage is that it is lawful for clergy to marry at their own discretion.

Albion said:
In fairness, that is not the issue, and almost no Anglican wants to do that.

Well, no, Albion, it is very much (a part of) the issue. When the Archbishop of Sydney says "please leave," it's the LGBTIQA+ folks (and their family members and friends) on the margins of the church's life who take that to heart, who feel they are not welcome, whose stigmatisation is entrenched. I've got a young guy enquiring about baptism, who's been coming to church, coming to Bible study, seriously considering committing his life to Christ... but after that message I had to spend ages with him basically assuring him that he was still welcome to do that with us! What good does it do to push people like that away through careless speech?

Steven Beck · Oct 26, 2019

Paidiske said:
I'm not talking about the Church vs. the world. I'm talking about huge social change in which the Church - by which I mean the diversity of all its members - is caught up. We have no choice but to navigate that social change.

It is church v the world. Read your bible specifically Romans 1. What happened at Sodom and Gomorrah? When you bring the world into the church, the church comes under judgement from the most high. The church is Christ's bride and He would like it to be spotless.

Paidiske · Oct 26, 2019

Steven Beck said:
It is church v the world.

I just don't see this issue in those terms. This is the Church struggling with its own identity and mission. Attacking and slandering one another in that process is not helpful.

SkyWriting · Oct 26, 2019

Paidiske said:
To be fair, I don't think that's just because of particular decisions made by leaders. Our society is deeply divided in all sorts of ways, and the Church has to try to navigate those divisions with grace and joy and peace. Not a simple process!

Very simple.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

HatGuy · Oct 27, 2019

Anthony2019 said:
Sexuality is a very divisive subject amongst Anglicans and there is often strong disagreement over theological and ethical issues.

The way I see it, no one is trying to change the "doctrine" of the Anglican church or abandon the "plain meaning of scripture". There are simply many Anglicans who feel that isolating and stigmatising the LGBT community is damaging the witness and ministry of the church. My local diocese, which is known for being inclusive and accepting of LGBTs, has stated that they wish to exemplify the "radical Christian inclusion founded in scripture, in tradition, in theology and the Christian faith as the church has received it". They state that "the basic principle is that all people are welcome in God’s Church: everyone has a place at the table. There is no theological problem with simply providing welcome, an extension of the welcome that God continually offers to each of us".

I am sorry to disappoint Archbishop Glenn Davies, but I am an Anglican who believes in radical Christian love and inclusion and I have no intention of leaving the church.

I don't personally know a single Christian who believes that heterosexual, monogamous marriage is the only biblical marriage, who wants to isolate gay people, exclude them, and does not want them included in the life of their church. Sure, I know such people exist, but I don't personally know of any.

The issue, however, is not whether gay people should be loved and treated as human beings with intrinsic value, the issue is whether the church should bless and perform same sex marriages and celebrate such marriage in the same way it has celebrated traditional marriages through the ages.

The problem with what you're presenting is it comes across as code-speak. You have to be clear. Do you want to see gay people included in the life of the church and not isolated or judged unfairly, harshly, etc.? Or do you want to see same sex marriage performed, blessed, and celebrated in the church? These are not the same issue, they are two different issues.

Phil W · Oct 27, 2019

SkyWriting said:
How are we supposed to treat others?

With love.
Letting folks do things that will eternally damn them is NOT love.

Heavenhome · Oct 27, 2019

Optimus Fortis said:
But but I was told by libertarians that what consenting adults do in private was irrelevant.

That is an interesting comment because nowadays homosexuality being a private thing is far from the reality. We are bombarded left, right and centre with it and anyone who doesn't agree with it is derided, mocked and pretty much hated.
Many militant groups seem to enjoy going to institutions or businesses that they know will cause disruption and cry foul when they are not embraced.

Heavenhome · Oct 27, 2019

GingerBeer said:
The media is not the nation's culture. The media's culture is what makes for good sales to drive better advertising revenue. I live in Australia and my culture doesn't feel any pressure to "celebrate" "the gay lifestyle" - whatever that is intended to mean.

Wow, I'm in Australia too and my goodness I would say the opposite, even our council flies the rainbow flag, as does the community health centre and shop windows display posters. And I am in the country and I'm talking of our regional town.

Daniel C · Oct 27, 2019

GingerBeer said:
Is that not true of every denomination?

Well my actual point was this ''I would say your church doctrine is just man made and not the preserved word of God''

So to a point you are correct,all denominations and Pastors have the task of constructing their own doctrine. However their are some people who don't even want to obey God and view the Bible as guidance,inspiration or something of that nature,anything but authority. This is why I am Baptist and follow the IFB because their doctrine is the scripture and their final authority is the Bible,not a corrupt council.

The Anglican church by contrast ignores many parts of Gods word and has done the shameful act of allowing sodomite ''marriage' in their denomination. They are acting against God not with Gods word by allowing this iniquity to manifest itself within their church walls. Shame on them.

kiwimac · Oct 27, 2019

Heavenhome said:
I am not Anglican but applaud the Archbishop's comments to leave.
This is a fine example of the world coming into the church ( or wanting to).

Too many churches of all denominations seem to put numbers or popularity above Biblical doctrine.

One expression I hate is " how can we make the church more relevant to people? " and then start letting all kinds of sin or wrong teaching in the distorted view of "love".

If we truly love people and more importantly God, we live by His truth regardless of the consequence.

Rot and nonsense.

Heavenhome · Oct 27, 2019

Your opinion sir and you are entitled to it, as I am.
I could apply your comment right back at you

Steven Beck · Oct 27, 2019

Heavenhome said:
Wow, I'm in Australia too and my goodness I would say the opposite, even our council flies the rainbow flag, as does the community health centre and shop windows display posters. And I am in the country and I'm talking of our regional town.

I live in the Eastern Suburbs with Paddo down the road so rainbows everywhere.

dqhall · Oct 27, 2019

Steven Beck said:
Jesus knew Judas would betray Him from the beginning since the Father told Him. Judas was there for a reason. Yes Jesus ate and drank with sinners but He always preached the Gospel whilst with them. He would tell them about their sins and that they should repent. Our churches are not doing this. They admit sinners into the church then give them leadership positions when they have not repented and are still living in sin.

In the parable of the wheat and the tares, both the wheat and tares appeared similar shortly after they sprouted. Only later did the workers realize someone had planted the toxic weed tare seeds among the wheat. The farmer separated the wheat from the tares (bearded darnel?) during the harvest. God will separate good people from bad people on the day of judgement - Matthew 13.

'Please leave': why the Sydney archbishop's same-sex marriage message has Anglicans rattled

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