Please help...

[Reformationist]

Hello everyone...

I have heard it said that the the doctrinal advocation of praying to saints, specifically Mary, is not only biblically based, but also not an appeal to them to personally answer our prayer. On the contrary, it is merely a request that they join us in prayer. I have already had it explained to me that "to pray" means "to ask." So, if I'm not mistaken, when you pray to Mary you are merely asking her to pray with you in your petition to God. If I am mistaken please feel free to respectfully correct me.

So, my question is twofold. First, can you share with me the biblical support for praying to saints that have passed on and, secondly, what is it that you believe is accomplished when a person joins in prayer with anyone, be they a saint that has passed on or a fellow believer that is still alive in the world today?

Thanks for your time and explanation of this view.

God bless

 

[Michelina]

...can you share with me the biblical support for praying to saints that have passed on

There are scriptural supports for this practice, reverberations of it. Catholics don't approach the SS as Protestants do. Firstly, because they are not our sole point of reference. Sacred Tradition is also a part of the Apostolic Deposit of Faith. I have never seen anywhere in SS any indication that we should not communicate with those who have enetered heaven.

and, secondly, what is it that you believe is accomplished when a person joins in prayer with anyone, be they a saint that has passed on or a fellow believer that is still alive in the world today?

We believe that Christians in heaven will continue to do as they did on earth. They are not transformed into another type of being but are merely perfected in who they were on earth. They will love perfectly and their hearts will lift up those in need, esp. when the Church on earth asks for their intercession with God, who is pleased that the Saints in heaven are fulfilling His will by loving and interceding for their brethren on earth.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi Don!

Yes you are correct . . .we are only asking Mary to pray with us, to add her prayers to ours . .

Scriptural support in part is

James 5:16b. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
​

Or woman, of course



Peace in Him!

 

[anawim]

So, my question is twofold. First, can you share with me the biblical support for praying to saints that have passed on and, secondly, what is it that you believe is accomplished when a person joins in prayer with anyone, be they a saint that has passed on or a fellow believer that is still alive in the world today?

Thanks for your time and explanation of this view.

God bless

Rev. 5:8 describes the 4 living creatures, and 24 elders all holding incense which are the prayers of the saints.

Rev. 8:3-4 describes the angel with a cesor, and the smoke from it rose with the prayers of the saints.

Their are saints in heaven and saints on Earth. We are all members of the same body of Christ. Saints pray for one another, whether that saint is here or has gone on to their reward in heaven.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I would just like to say that I have had some very considerate and respectful discussions with Reformationist recently, and it gladdens my heart to see him here asking us to help him understand our faith, what we believe. . . I believe that this request is indeed sincere and appreciate that he has come here to us rather than in do so in GT . .

Welcome Reformationist.


Peace in Him!

 

[Maggie893]

This, reformationist, requires more than a one line verse. Here is a beginning:

1 Tim 2:
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone– 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time.

Within this context we see that although Christ is the sole mediator with the Father, we are sought to intercede with one another and with Him in prayer for one another.

James 5:
13Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.


It is clear here that prayer is efficacious and that the "righteous man"'s prayer is powerful.

Romans 8

31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all–how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died - more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[l] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing can seperate us from the love of Christ, not even death. Once you are part of the Body of Christ i.e. unified with Christ, you are not seperated from the Body by death. So Saints in heaven are still part of the body of Christ and still have functions to perform such as praying for us.

1 Cor 12:
21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don't need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don't need you!” 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

So the Saints who have been sanctified and brought into the Glory of God desire that all parts of the Body of Christ be united there in heaven and are praying for us as refered to in Revelations.

Rev 5:
8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twentyfour elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

The prayers of the saints are as incense to the Lord.

Rev 8:
3Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand.


So just from these scriptures you can see that the Body of Christ is whole and complete and includes those whose bodies have died but whose souls are eternal, never dying and now unified in the Glory of God in heaven. Prayers of the saints are efficacious and the righteous (which I should say those in heaven are definitely there) are powerful. We are one body in Christ and should pray for one another as intercessor for the salvation of all.

As for what happens when we intercede for one another and for ourselves when we pray. God answers. Not always as we understand the answer to be but we know that God hears and responds to our prayers.

The old testament is full of examples where people interceded for others and God heard their prayers. I won't cite all of them but Abraham intercedes for Lot, Moses was constantly interceding for the Israelites, and all the prophets constantly prayed for the people to be restored to God.

When speaking of asking for or participating in intercessory prayer and it's value, I often use the example of a parent and their children. Let's say you have two children and on your birthday, each child goes to their own room, shuts the door and draws you a picture for your birthday gift. When you receive these you are filled with joy that your children created something just for you out of love. But if the two children team up, and create one picture for you, together working on the project. When you receive this you feel a certain joy that is not better then the prior type of joy but deeper because your children have overcome their seperations and issues and united out of love for you. Your children, created from the same source of love within you, are united with one another in that same love for you.

I'm sure others will do better to explain but there is a beginning.

 

[ZooMom]

Hello everyone.

Hi, Ref. I'm very glad you came over here to talk about this. It's good to see you.

Now, on to my question. I have heard it said that the the doctrinal advocation of praying to saints, specifically Mary, is not only biblically based, but also not an appeal to them to personally answer our prayer. On the contrary, it is merely a request that they join us in prayer. I have already had it explained to me that "to pray" means "to ask." So, if I'm not mistaken, when you pray to Mary you are merely asking her to pray with you in your petition to God. If I am mistaken please feel free to respectfully correct me.

Nope, it looks like you got that down pat.

So, my question is twofold. First, can you share with me the biblical support for praying to saints that have passed on.

Of course. To understand the practice of 'praying' to the Saints, it is neccessary to understand the Communion of Saints.

Catholics believe that the saints who have died before us are alive in Heaven and with our Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

We believe that the Body of Christ is WHOLE. That includes the saints on earth and the Saints in Heaven.

Romans 12:5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.

1 Corinthians 12:12 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

We believe that asking for intercessory prayer from our brothers and sisters in Christ is entirely Scriptural and extremely profitable.

Matthew 21:22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Romans 15:30 I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me.

2 Corinthians 1:11 as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our[1] behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many.

Ephesians 6:18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone--

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

We believe that kneeling in prayer is Scriptural and shows reverence, humility, and submission to God's Will

Acts 20:36 When he had said this, he knelt down with all of them and prayed.

Acts 21:5 But when our time was up, we left and continued on our way. All the disciples and their wives and children accompanied us out of the city, and there on the beach we knelt to pray.

Acts 9:40 Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, "Tabitha, get up." She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

Luke 22:41 He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed,

and, secondly, what is it that you believe is accomplished when a person joins in prayer with anyone, be they a saint that has passed on or a fellow believer that is still alive in the world today?

I'm not sure I understand. What is accomplished? Hopefully, in any prayer, it is God's Will that is accomplished. As the Scriptures above show, however, we are exhorted to pray for each other, for all things. It creates, if you will, a 'network' of Grace, touching even those who have no idea that they are even being prayed for. Have you seen that commercial about...I think it was a telephone or maybe an internet service...anyway it showed an international map with these hundreds of thousands of glowing dots and glowing lines connecting them all over the globe, spanning even the oceans. Now imagine that you add thousands of little dots in the heavens also connecting to those on earth, creating a web of Grace, and that is what is accomplished through the Communion of Saints.

Thanks for your time and explanation of this view.

God bless

You are most welcome! Please remember that my PM box is open if you ever want to talk. God bless and keep you, my friend!

Peace be with you!

Sandy

 

[tjboie2001]

ok reformationist when we pray to the saints we do say mother mary pray for us. But to me I have never ever asked mary to pray with me I have asked her to pray for us. Which be along with the other saints. But anyway when i use to pray I use to only pray to god himself but I never asked mary to pray with me.

 

[St_Joseph_Cupertino]

Hi Reformationist.

There is a wonderful website called ScriptureCatholic, and more specifically the page on the saints, found here:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

I found this site recently and told my wife about it on the weekend. Then I found it this morning and mailed it to her, so it's rather fresh in my memory.

Iplan to refer to this iste a lot when I speak to my Protestant family. It really is a hand tool for me since Protestants believe the Bible is the only Truth, and not like Catholics, that Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition goes hand in hand.
It helps to have Scripture passages handy for certain situations and discussions.

Hope this will help!

Peace in Christ!

 

[ukok]

Reformationist, i believe you have received some excellent material and links already, but i will see what i can come up with,

http://www.scmo.org.uk/_titles/vatican_view.asp?id=338

John Paul II recalled that today, November 2,

we remember “all those who
have left this world and are waiting to reach the heavenly city. The Church
has always urged us to pray for the dead. She invites believers to regard
the mystery of death not as the last word on human fate but as a journey
toward eternal life.”
“It is an important duty of ours to pray for the dead because although
they may have died in grace and in friendship with God, they may still be in
need of a last purification in order to enter into the joy of heaven. Prayer
for the souls of the dead can be expressed in various ways, including a
visit to the cemetery. Going to these sacred places provides an auspicious
occasion to reflect on the meaning of earthly life and to nourish, at the
same time, hope in the blessed eternity of paradise.”

_________________________________________________________

Q. Why do Catholics have to have Mary to intercede for us when we pray?


Catholics do not "have to have" Mary intercede for us.
We can, and do, pray directly to God. However, we also recognize that having someone provide intercessory prayer for us is very beneficial. Few people feel uncomfortable about asking their friend or neighbor to pray for them, especially in time of need; after all, two prayers are better than one
. Mary is, and always will be, the mother of Jesus. As a mother, she has certain rights and privileges and this is why we ask her to intercede for us. Every prayer addressed to Mary is in reality a prayer asking a favor from God.

http://www.scborromeo.org/glad/c8.htm#q2
_________________________________________________________

Q: Why do Catholics pray to saints?
find out here:


http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/praying.htm

hope this helps, i'll try to provide more information as we go

God Bless.

 

[Veritas]

Reformationist, here's something you can "sink your teeth into". It's a short bible study from http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/The author does a great job step-by-step of explaining through the scripture's and the Catholic Catechism our understanding and belief of the "Communion of Saints". We are in essence ONE Body with Christ as the Head, not many different bodies floating around in space disconnected from one another. The passage of a Christian soul from this life into the next, poses no obstacle for our Omnipotent God. In fact, if I may be so bold, all matter created by our Heavenly Father is somehow connected with the single purpose of glorifiying Him. The bonds that we now share with one another through Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit cannot be broken by the change in the location of a soul. Those bonds continue to grow and strengthen throughout all eternity. This is a very profound and mystical reality. Believe it or not, my friend, you are at this very moment "surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses"! Praise be to our Heavenly Father for providing such a rich source of spiritual help in time of need!

http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/booklets.asp

Just click on your format for the Communion of Saints to access the bible study booklet. You might also find some of the other topics of interest. In addition, these booklets go along with the tapes offered and some of them are free. Otherwise, the tapes are cheap.

God be with

 

[Debi1967]

Reformationist,

I am glad to see that you are here and that you have accepted teh invitation that was given to you in the thread in GT as to what our practices entail.



You know for me when I had a hard time understanding this in the beginning, I was asked a series of questions that helped me to understand a little better, maybe they will help you as well.



Do you believe that those that are in Heaven are more alive than we are? Do you believe that because they have achieved what we are now trying to achieve that they are in closer communion with the Lord and have already been washed clean of all the we still are burdened with? IOW there are no barriers for them the same as us, like greed, pride, lust, gluttony, ect; because they are not burdened with these things anymore?



Now I know that the following questions are going to sound stupid, (because they did to me LOL ) but there is a reason for asking them I assure you. Now do you believe that when you pray that you can just have a conversation? Do you believe that prayer must always be formatted? And do you believe in the power of prayer? Also, associated to the power of prayer, do you believe that you can ask others to help you in that prayer effort and that it "amplifies" the prayer? Amplifies is in quotes because it is the only word I can think of right now.... sorry I just woke up. My brain is not quite in high gear yet. (Go ahead and laugh at that I know you want to...LOL Just no making the obvious remark back OK..)



Now, to get back to the subject at hand. So, simply apply those to asking your fellow Christians, that are now living, to help you in your prayer efforts and what you are doing is also asking your fellow Christians that are already in Heaven to also help you. It is not that we do not talk to the Lord directly, because there are oft times that I do. It is more the fact, that if I feel that I need help, that I can only ask my fellow Christians to help me but also those that have already ascended. If you are asking those on earth to be intercessors on your behalf then why not those in Heaven....



As, far as Mary is concerned, I have had it explained to me this way. Say you were going to visit the King of your Kingdom and in this you had to bring with you a token of your Faithfulness to that King. But because of your status, as related to us earthbound Christians, anything we bring to that King is stained and bruised. But, standing there with him is His Mother, and you know that if you ask Her, she can probably take your offering to the King that is bruised and stained and maked it look much more appealing to Him, what would you do? IOWs, because of the fact that she is his Mother and knows Him better than most She knows just the way to take, say those "bruised apples" and make them into the most appealing thing He has ever seen. It is not that you are Worshipping the Mother, it is that you are indeed offering the Son more Worship because you desire to give Him the best you can and have used everything that you can in order to do so. And because the Mother also desires this for Her Son she is more than willing to help you in your endevours with this....



She was the Intercessor you used to wash away the sinfulness so that when He saw your offering it was cleansed.....



Pax Christi

Debi

(Had to copy and paste my own post into here as soon as we got back up and running again hence the time lapse in when I reference to me just getting up and when it is posted, don't want anyone thinking I sleep this late in the day)

 

[tjboie2001]

Reformationist,

I am glad to see that you are here and that you have accepted teh invitation that was given to you in the thread in GT as to what our practices entail.



You know for me when I had a hard time understanding this in the beginning, I was asked a series of questions that helped me to understand a little better, maybe they will help you as well.



Do you believe that those that are in Heaven are more alive than we are? Do you believe that because they have achieved what we are now trying to achieve that they are in closer communion with the Lord and have already been washed clean of all the we still are burdened with? IOW there are no barriers for them the same as us, like greed, pride, lust, gluttony, ect; because they are not burdened with these things anymore?



Now I know that the following questions are going to sound stupid, (because they did to me LOL ) but there is a reason for asking them I assure you. Now do you believe that when you pray that you can just have a conversation? Do you believe that prayer must always be formatted? And do you believe in the power of prayer? Also, associated to the power of prayer, do you believe that you can ask others to help you in that prayer effort and that it "amplifies" the prayer? Amplifies is in quotes because it is the only word I can think of right now.... sorry I just woke up. My brain is not quite in high gear yet. (Go ahead and laugh at that I know you want to...LOL Just no making the obvious remark back OK..)



Now, to get back to the subject at hand. So, simply apply those to asking your fellow Christians, that are now living, to help you in your prayer efforts and what you are doing is also asking your fellow Christians that are already in Heaven to also help you. It is not that we do not talk to the Lord directly, because there are oft times that I do. It is more the fact, that if I feel that I need help, that I can only ask my fellow Christians to help me but also those that have already ascended. If you are asking those on earth to be intercessors on your behalf then why not those in Heaven....



As, far as Mary is concerned, I have had it explained to me this way. Say you were going to visit the King of your Kingdom and in this you had to bring with you a token of your Faithfulness to that King. But because of your status, as related to us earthbound Christians, anything we bring to that King is stained and bruised. But, standing there with him is His Mother, and you know that if you ask Her, she can probably take your offering to the King that is bruised and stained and maked it look much more appealing to Him, what would you do? IOWs, because of the fact that she is his Mother and knows Him better than most She knows just the way to take, say those "bruised apples" and make them into the most appealing thing He has ever seen. It is not that you are Worshipping the Mother, it is that you are indeed offering the Son more Worship because you desire to give Him the best you can and have used everything that you can in order to do so. And because the Mother also desires this for Her Son she is more than willing to help you in your endevours with this....



She was the Intercessor you used to wash away the sinfulness so that when He saw your offering it was cleansed.....



Pax Christi

Debi

(Had to copy and paste my own post into here as soon as we got back up and running again hence the time lapse in when I reference to me just getting up and when it is posted, don't want anyone thinking I sleep this late in the day)

I agree on everything that you said in here debi.

 

[Benedicta00]

what is it that you believe is accomplished when a person joins in prayer with anyone, be they a saint that has passed on or a fellow believer that is still alive in the world today?

I hope Don does return to the thread, it isn’t like him to not answer but...

I know what he is specifically asking and that is, can the prayers of the saints or even those on earth change the will of God and is this why we "pray" to them, to get God to do our will. If I am correct that this is the gist of your question then I will answer…

No, this is not why we pray to them for their intercession and help.

For a Catholic who truly understands his or her faith we pray to conform our will to God's will. This is the purpose and end to prayer, to conform to God’s will and not our own.

We pray for what is universally best. The saints in heaven aid our prayers by joining theirs to them. They understand the will of God far better than we do and they pray that God's will be done for us because they know this is what is best for us and our soul. The also pray for our acceptance of His will, not ours. They pray for us to receive virtue so that we can conform our will to God’s will. Virtues like patience, long suffering and humility so that we can accept God’s will and not fight against it. If we do fight against it that does not mean we think our will is going to happen. If we fight against God’s will then we will be miserable and not have the peace that Christ came to give us. This is prmiarly the reason why we pray, to conform our will to god’s. Those who constantly reject his will and fight against it are the ones who have no real prayer life or no prayer life at all.

I know reading some of the novena prayers make it sound like we are trying to convince the saints and God to do our will but any good Catholic knows that the prayer is said in the spirit of "If this be your will and for the good of my soul." We believe we can ask for what ever we want from God- it’s not wrong to ask for things or blessings or what ever but in the end we must submit to what ever his answer is, because as Christ said, what is answer is what is universally best. God will not give us a stone when we ask for a fish.

We believe those who have gone before marked with the sign of faith are in a far better position to assist us in praying to God and praying for us to receive all the graces we need to accept God’s will.