Please Help With Perseverance of the Saints

[jinc1019]

Hi Everyone,

One issue I have with Calvinism (actually my biggest issue) is the idea that everyone who truly has faith will never completely lose it. I agree with the idea that the elect will never fully fall away, but why isn't it possible that God may have a person come to true faith for some particular purpose but not preserve that faith? This is basically the position Lutherans take and it seems to fit nicely with all of those troublesome passages in the Bible that suggest a person can fall away from the faith...

From the Calvinist perspective, can you please correct me here? Why is it that Calvinists believe a person who has true faith will always persevere? Again, I know the ELECT will persevere, but why must everyone who has faith be in the ELECT? What about all the passages that suggest a person can fall away?

I am not interested in arguing; I genuinely want to know and am interested in Calvinism.

-Justin

 

[JM]

The London Baptist Confession of1689 reads;​

ch.14

“The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,”

“By this faith a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word for the authority of God himself”

“and so is enabled to cast his soul upon the truth thus believed”
ch.15

“This saving repentance is an evangelical grace, whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin”
The idea that all men everywhere must repent is biblical, BUT, the repentance required of the reprobate is legal. All men are guilty of breaking God’s law and therefore must repent of their deeds and they never do. Sure, unsaved people feel guilt or regret over their sins but they still rage against the holy and living God. Only the elect are given the “evangelical grace” of repentance and faith that leads to eternal life.



John Gill’s comments on Acts 20.21 are useful in understanding this subject and so, I post them below.

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks,…. To the Jews first in their synagogue, and then to both Jews and Greeks, or Gentiles, in the school of Tyrannus; opening and explaining to both the nature and use, urging and insisting upon, and proving by undeniable testimonies the necessity,

of repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ: the former of these is not a legal repentance, but an evangelical one; which flows from a sense of the love of God, and an application of pardoning grace and mercy, and is always attended with hope, at least of interest in it, and as here with faith in Christ Jesus: it lies in a true sight and sense of sin, as exceeding sinful, being contrary to the nature and law of God, and a deformation of the image of God in man, as well as followed with dreadful and pernicious consequences; and in a godly sorrow for it, as it is committed against a God of infinite purity and holiness, and of love, grace, and mercy; and it shows itself in shame for sin, and blushing at it, and in an ingenious confession of it, and forsaking it: and the latter of these is not an historical faith, or an assent of the mind to whatsoever is true concerning the person, office, and grace of Christ; but is a spiritual act of the soul upon him; it is a looking and going out to him, a laying hold and leaning on him, and trusting in him, for grace, righteousness, peace, pardon, life, and salvation. Now these two were the sum of the apostle’s ministry; this is a breviary or compendium of it; a form of sound words held fast and published by him: and as these two go together as doctrines in the ministry of the word, they go together as graces in the experience of the saints; where the one is, there the other is; they are wrought in the soul at one and the same time, by one and the same hand; the one is not before the other in order of time, however it may be in order of working, or as to visible observation; repentance is mentioned before faith, not that it precedes it, though it may be discerned in its outward acts before it; yet faith as to its inward exercise on Christ is full as early, if not earlier; souls first look to Christ by faith, and then they mourn in tears of evangelical repentance, Zec 12:10 though the order of the Gospel ministry is very fitly here expressed, which is first to lay before sinners the evil of sin, and their danger by it, in order to convince of it, and bring to repentance for it; and then to direct and encourage them to faith in Christ Jesus, as in the case of the jailer, Ac 16:29 and this is, generally speaking, the order and method in which the Holy Spirit proceeds; he is first a spirit of conviction and illumination, he shows to souls the exceeding sinfulness of sin, causes them to loath it and themselves for it, and humbles them under a sense of it; and then he is a spirit of faith, he reveals Christ unto them as God’s way or salvation, and works faith in them to believe in him. Moreover, these two, repentance and faith, were the two parts of Christ’s ministry, Mr 1:15 and are what, he would have published and insisted on, in the preaching of the word, Lu 24:47 so that the ministry of the apostle was very conformable to the mind and will of Christ.

 

[JM]

So yes, God will use all means including false professors of the faith for the good of His elect.

“Godly sorrow is that sorrow that drives you to Christ. It is focused on God and our affront to Him. It causes us to fall at His feet begging mercy because we have no other hope https://feileadhmor.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/goya-repentance.jpgbut in His sovereign mercy.

Worldly sorrow is the sorrow of religion. It is focused on me and drives me to look to myself. It lays guilt on me and and can never purge the conscience. It brings death because it looks to me.

Psalm 51 is an example of godly sorrow. David had just killed Urriah in order to steal his wife and the prophet Nathan, as the mouth of God, called him out on it. David then wrote Psalm 51. Jer. 31:18,19 is another example of godly sorrow. Israel’s history is an example of worldly sorrow.” – (some guy named) Ron Wood

 

[abacabb3]

. I agree with the idea that the elect will never fully fall away, but why isn't it possible that God may have a person come to true faith for some particular purpose but not preserve that faith?

You were never elect to start with if you do fall away. Jesus says, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" (John 6:39).

So, if someone falls away, their faith was counterfeit. The people in Hebrews 6, those who have even by God's sovereignty had "tasted" the Holy Spirit but were not "sealed" (Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22), never had real faith.

So, those with real faith always persevere. Men cannot discern with 100% certainty who has real faith and who does not. In fact, the individual believer may even delude himself.

 

[jinc1019]

So yes, God will use all means including false professors of the faith for the good of His elect.

“Godly sorrow is that sorrow that drives you to Christ. It is focused on God and our affront to Him. It causes us to fall at His feet begging mercy because we have no other hope https://feileadhmor.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/goya-repentance.jpgbut in His sovereign mercy.

Worldly sorrow is the sorrow of religion. It is focused on me and drives me to look to myself. It lays guilt on me and and can never purge the conscience. It brings death because it looks to me.

Psalm 51 is an example of godly sorrow. David had just killed Urriah in order to steal his wife and the prophet Nathan, as the mouth of God, called him out on it. David then wrote Psalm 51. Jer. 31:18,19 is another example of godly sorrow. Israel’s history is an example of worldly sorrow.” – (some guy named) Ron Wood

Very interesting stuff. I am appreciative because I do believe much can be learned from what you posted here. However, I don't think it really addresses the issue I initially proposed. I understand that the Reformed belief is that genuine faith and repentance (a repentance that's pure and directed toward Christ) can never truly fall away, but I don't understand why Reformed believe it's impossible for someone to have faith and then lose it according to God's plan. Perhaps I am missing what your central point is?

 

[jinc1019]

You were never elect to start with if you do fall away. Jesus says, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" (John 6:39).

So, if someone falls away, their faith was counterfeit. The people in Hebrews 6, those who have even by God's sovereignty had "tasted" the Holy Spirit but were not "sealed" (Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22), never had real faith.

So, those with real faith always persevere. Men cannot discern with 100% certainty who has real faith and who does not. In fact, the individual believer may even delude himself.

Thanks for addressing my concerns and using scripture as well.

To start, I agree completely that if you fall away, you were never elect. Lutherans agree too. However, why can't a person have faith and not be elect (meaning God knows he won't persevere)?

You cited some good passages of scripture, but there are other passages which seem to indicate the opposite. Galatians 5:4, for instance, says: "You are separated from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by Law, you have fallen from grace."

How can someone "fall from grace?" Doesn't this indicate a person must have had grace, which can only be brought by faith, in the first place?

 

[jinc1019]

In Luke 8, there is another example when Jesus explains the parable of the sower.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Romans 8 is a very relevant chapter. Good to read through it carefully and prayerfully.

 

[jinc1019]

Romans 8 is a very relevant chapter. Good to read through it carefully and prayerfully.

I have yes, it's one of the most important chapters in all of the New Testament. However, I don't see anything there that says that everyone who has faith will be saved. It says everyone who is elect will be saved. There's a big difference between those situations.

 

[JM]

I understand that the Reformed belief is that genuine faith and repentance (a repentance that's pure and directed toward Christ) can never truly fall away, but I don't understand why Reformed believe it's impossible for someone to have faith and then lose it according to God's plan. Perhaps I am missing what your central point is?

Hi jinc,

I was driving at the different kinds of faith. One is saving, of which you may never fall and the other is historical or just a belief in the facts without belief that the promises are for you. You can fall away from historical faith but not from faith born of the Holy Spirit.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[JM]

How can someone "fall from grace?" Doesn't this indicate a person must have had grace, which can only be brought by faith, in the first place?

One can never fall from grace. They can fall from the proximity of the Gospel, of which the reprobate may enjoy the benefits of the Gospel, but they were never apart of the new covenant…ever.

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.” Jer. 31

The new covenant is unbreakable.

“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Mat. 26.28

The debit has been fully paid for by Christ. If that is the case we are no longer punishable or under the wrath of God the Father.

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,” Heb. 10

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[faroukfarouk]

I have yes, it's one of the most important chapters in all of the New Testament. However, I don't see anything there that says that everyone who has faith will be saved. It says everyone who is elect will be saved. There's a big difference between those situations.

The life that is characterized by minding the things of the Spirit (verse 5), by being led of the Spirit (verse 14), by crying to Father in filial dependence (verse 15), by patiently waiting for the object of our hope (verse 25) is a life of faith.

 

[abacabb3]

Thanks for addressing my concerns and using scripture as well.

You're welcome.

However, why can't a person have faith and not be elect (meaning God knows he won't persevere)?

Simply, a person can have counterfeit faith and not be elect or have real faith, and by GOd's promise in John 6:39 he will never lose that faith.

You cited some good passages of scripture, but there are other passages which seem to indicate the opposite...

Key word is "seem." The Scripture never contradicts itself, so when the verses appear to lead to different conclusions, it is important to find an interpretation that would be consistent with both.

Galatians 5:4, for instance, says: "You are separated from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by Law, you have fallen from grace."

In light of verse 5 "we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness" is a different set of people than the "you" that are separated from Christ. So, those who have fallen from grace were never part of the "we" and were never sealed with the Holy Spirit. Hence, though Paul says they have fallen from grace, that does not mean they have ever attained grace.

This is not a contradiction. For example, if you did a project for me and I said "you have failed to hit the mark," that does not necessarily mean you ever indeed did hit the mark. So, those who have apparently fallen from grace just appeared to be in God's good graces, but appearances can be deceiving. It has become evident that their faith in Christ was not true, and hence they have in appearance fallen from grace.

 

[twin1954]

Hi Everyone,

One issue I have with Calvinism (actually my biggest issue) is the idea that everyone who truly has faith will never completely lose it. I agree with the idea that the elect will never fully fall away, but why isn't it possible that God may have a person come to true faith for some particular purpose but not preserve that faith? This is basically the position Lutherans take and it seems to fit nicely with all of those troublesome passages in the Bible that suggest a person can fall away from the faith...

From the Calvinist perspective, can you please correct me here? Why is it that Calvinists believe a person who has true faith will always persevere? Again, I know the ELECT will persevere, but why must everyone who has faith be in the ELECT? What about all the passages that suggest a person can fall away?

I am not interested in arguing; I genuinely want to know and am interested in Calvinism.

-Justin

There are different kinds of faith and different objects of faith. Most religious folk have faith in their faith. They think they are saved because they made a profession and experienced a little something at some time. They most often look back to an event or an experience that gives them assurance that they are saved. But if you have to look at something in yourself your faith is in yourself not in Christ.

Others have the faith of the multitudes who threw palm branches on the road in His triumphal entry into Jerusalem. It lasts only as long as it takes to be put under some sort of trial or trouble. Others have faith in their own experiences and works to give them assurance of salvation. But that kind of faith always results in one of two things: it makes you self-righteous or it robs you of any peace at all because you can never do enough.

Religious faith is always about things. It constantly wonders if this thing is sin or that thing. It is about how much I give or how I act or how I live my life. It is focused on the things of religion and it is a false faith.

True saving faith that makes a sinner persevere and be preserved by the Savior looks to nothing but Christ alone. It drops all pretense of works and feelings. It sheds self-righteous religion and worthiness. It abhors anything spotted by the flesh and rests solely and completely in the finished work of Christ. He is to them all their righteousness, all their holiness, all their acceptance with God and they see in Him all they need and all that God requires of them. Looking to Christ being united to Him by faith they recognize and live on the simple fact that He is enough for God to accept and bless me and He is enough for me to rest wholly in. I need nothing but Christ to have all the promises of God in Him. I need nothing but Christ for God to say to me well done thou good and faithful servant.

Resting in Christ is to do nothing that you hope will be accepted of God because you are already accepted in Christ. It frees you to actually do the good works that God has ordained for you because you hope to gain nothing by them. You do them out of love and gratitude for the mercy and grace of God that provided a complete Savior.


But yes God does use the false professor and the religious zealot to bring about good to His elect. He uses the damned to bless His people just as He used Satan to bless Job with twice as much as he had before. He used the evil of Egypt to bring Joseph to rule and bless the house of Israel. They went out of the land with the entire riches of Egypt. He used the evil of Moab to bring Ruth to Bethlehem to be wed to Boaz to bring Christ into the world.

They are not of the elect but many do have a kind of faith that is never lasting and looks to something other than Christ.


Religious faith points you to yourself or your church. Saving, persevering, preserving faith always points you to Christ.

 

[jinc1019]

Hi jinc,

I was driving at the different kinds of faith. One is saving, of which you may never fall and the other is historical or just a belief in the facts without belief that the promises are for you. You can fall away from historical faith but not from faith born of the Holy Spirit.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

That makes much more sense. Thanks for clarifying! I can understand that, although I'm not sure there is any evidence in the Bible that distinction exists between those two categories, although I admit logic mandates that it does.

 

[JM]

That makes much more sense. Thanks for clarifying! I can understand that, although I'm not sure there is any evidence in the Bible that distinction exists between those two categories, although I admit logic mandates that it does.

A good example of faith that isn't saving, "even demons believe" James 2.19

 

[abacabb3]

THis may help the OP. From the London Baptist Confession:

This [saving] faith, although it be different in degrees, and may be weak or strong, yet it is in the least degree of it different in the kind or nature of it, as is all other saving grace, from the faith and common grace of temporary believers; and therefore, though it may be many times assailed and weakened, yet it gets the victory, growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance through Christ, who is both the author and finisher of our faith.

 

[JLR1300]

Luther said that the order is faith-justification-repentance
Luther later said it is repentance-faith-justification
Calvin said that the order is faith-justification-repentance
John Bunyan said it is faith-justification-repentance
Gill said it is faith and repentance simultaneously-justification
But, he said, we experience it as faith-justification-repentance
But, he said,the Bible presents it as repentance-faith-justification.
The truth is that Gill just couldn't figure out which order was correct so he just tried to support all sides.
Also Gill described repentance as godly sorrow and morning and regret etc. etc. That is interesting because in each case where the Bible mentions repentance meaning sorrow and regret it uses the Greek word metamelomai. Metamelomai means to sorrow or morn or regret. Metamelomai is NEVER used in a passage that is dealing with justification or being saved or becoming a Christian. Anytime the Bible uses the word repentance in connection with justification or becoming saved it uses Metanoia. Metanoia doesn't mean sorrow and morning.... it means to change your mind about what you think or believe. That is why the New Testament says believe about 150 times and just says repent a handful of times.
If you think that the theologians of the past weren't confused about repentance they let me ask you this... why did they have so many different opinions about it?. Can they have 20 different opinions and yet all be correct? Like Luther, some disagreed with themselves! Calvin and Beza had different views. Zwinli had a different view than Bunyan. Spurgeon said it is wrong to tell a sinner to repent of his sins. Other times he appeared to do just that.

Whatever you do, don't idolize the men of the past. They were just men. We are men also and we have a brain too. What some of them didn't realize is that metanoia is one thing and metamelomai is quite another.

First we repent (metanoia...change our minds about what we are trusting in) then we have faith (believe and trust that the blood of Jesus covers our sin personally) then we are justified (declared not guilty in the sight of God) then we are indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit and He begins to produce the fruit of the Spirit (which is love and goodness which we need to have sorrow for sin) then we repent (metamelomai- experience godly sorrow and regret) Since the reformers didn't distinguish between these two kinds of repentance they were unclear in their statements and some like Luther said one thing then another. Gill seems especially confused because he takes the one word for repentance that is never used in a salvation passage and applies it to salvation.

If you do what the Bible never does (take metamelomai and it's meaning of sorrow for sin and the implied turning from it) and apply it to the verses that teach us what is needed for justification and forgiveness) you are adding works to salvation. Turning from sin is a work. Jonah 3:10 "Then God saw their WORKS that they TURNED FROM THEIR EVIL WAY and God relented of the disaster that He had said..."

Regeneration doesn't produce the fruit of Love and Goodness which causes Metamelomai repentance. Regeneration produces metanoia (changing your mind about what you trust) and faith... that brings justification that brings the indwelling of the Holy Spirit... that brings the fruits of the Spirit (Love and goodness etc) that produces sorrow for sin (Metamelomai).

 

[jinc1019]

One can never fall from grace. They can fall from the proximity of the Gospel, of which the reprobate may enjoy the benefits of the Gospel, but they were never apart of the new covenant…ever.

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.” Jer. 31

The new covenant is unbreakable.

“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Mat. 26.28

The debit has been fully paid for by Christ. If that is the case we are no longer punishable or under the wrath of God the Father.

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,” Heb. 10

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Doesn't Galatians 5:4 clearly say that you can fall away from grace?

 

[jinc1019]

You're welcome.



Simply, a person can have counterfeit faith and not be elect or have real faith, and by GOd's promise in John 6:39 he will never lose that faith.



Key word is "seem." The Scripture never contradicts itself, so when the verses appear to lead to different conclusions, it is important to find an interpretation that would be consistent with both.



In light of verse 5 "we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness" is a different set of people than the "[TtThB]you[/B]" that are separated from Christ. So, those who have fallen from grace were never part of the "we" and were never sealed with the Holy Spirit. Hence, though Paul says they have fallen from grace, that does not mean they have ever attained grace.

This is not a contradiction. For example, if you did a project for me and I said "you have failed to hit the mark," that does not necessarily mean you ever indeed did hit the mark. So, those who have apparently fallen from grace just appeared to be in God's good graces, but appearances can be deceiving. It has become evident that their faith in Christ was not true, and hence they have in appearance fallen from grace.

That's a good point, one that R.C. Sproul reiterates in one of his lectures, but doesn't "falling" from grace mean you have to first have it? How can you fall from a position if you never attained it?

That's an excellent point about John 6:39...I don't know how to explain that. Luther basically said the scriptures presented a contradiction and we have to live with that. Why do you believe scripture cannot contradict itself? Luther believed it could in the sense that human knowledge is limited. True contradictions are not possible, of course, but again, our knowledge is limited, so maybe concepts that seem contradictory can co-exist.