Please help, questions about Purgatory and Mary.

Catherineanne · Mar 6, 2009

thereselittleflower said:
I don't think she understands what Grace is.

Indeed not.

Hark to the gentle sound of axes grinding.

Catherineanne · Mar 6, 2009

fleethefire said:
I don't like to follow traditions just because they are traditions. Remember Jesus' words in Mark 7:6-9
THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.' 8"Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."
9He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.

I think this is a pretty firm statement from Jesus on what we should think of traditions. Our hearts can be deceived. Deut. 11:16, Judges 16:15, Jeremiah 49:16, and Obadiah 1:3

I am still searching for Bible verses that tell us about Mary's condition.

Goody, Bible poker. My fav!!!

I'll see your Mark, and raise you Isaiah (28 13ff) about basing your faith on words.

"So then, the word of the Lord to them will become, Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there - so that they will go and fall backwards, be injured and snared and captured."

And a few from Paul about love:

"It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

What part of questioning the integrity of his mother is loving Christ exactly?

Meanwhile, you might like to consider that it is not possible to prove a negative proposition. None of us can prove what we have not done. It is up to others to provide evidence that we have done it. Or, in legal terms, a person is innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until they can provide written evidence of their innocence.

And if this is true of us, it is a thousand times more true of Our Lady.

fleethefire · Mar 6, 2009

Catherineanne said:
I want to know if your mother was a virgin when she married. Can you prove it to me from written evidence?

Then I want you to go to your minister and ask him for this same written evidence for his mother, failing which we will feel free to regard her as a sinner, and to discuss the level of her sin, and at what point God's grace met her.

If you find this line of questioning disrespectful, please consider that you are asking these questions of Our Lord himself. God chose Our Lady, and that alone should be enough to prevent any Christian asking any question whatever in relation to her integrity and purity, just as we would not even dream of asking it of our own mothers.

Honour thy father and thy mother.

I don't think my mother's state at the time of her marriage is relevant to this discussion. I also don't find it disrespectful at all, in fact these are the types of questions we must be willing to ask. I also would argue that it is highly relevant to ask these questions.

If someone you loved were addicted to drugs, would you not care enough to try and help them? Would you not try to get them on the right track?
Jesus said he came to divide.

We have been called to preach the good news to all creation. We are supposed to make disciples, and baptize them. This is a command I take very seriously.

If you questioned my beliefs I would not be offended at all. Even if you told me I was an idiot for being so mindless, it would not bother me. If you rejected me because I told you about what God has done for you through His son Jesus Christ, it would not hurt my feelings. We are not being rejected Christ is.

fleethefire · Mar 6, 2009

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to discuss these issues with me.

Can you please explain to me why Mary is so important to all of you? I'm not asking this question to offend anyone, I am really interested in your answers.

Epiphanygirl · Mar 6, 2009

fleethefire said:
I really appreciate everyone taking the time to discuss these issues with me.

Can you please explain to me why Mary is so important to all of you? I'm not asking this question to offend anyone, I am really interested in your answers.

Because she is the greatest Human example we have( *aside from the human Christ)

She said "Yes" You might think of it as her being the first to accept Jesus into her heart.....her life.........her womb..........the perfect example of motherhood.

we honor so much in this world........and wrongly so.........we put movie stars, athletic stars. political figures as being role models.................

What about the Mother of God, our Lord and Saviors mother? Can we not show her respect like we should our own Mother? Honor Thy Mother and Father

PETE_ · Mar 6, 2009

thereselittleflower said:
I don't think she understands what Grace is.

How would you explain it then?

benedictaoo · Mar 6, 2009

fleethefire said:
I really appreciate everyone taking the time to discuss these issues with me.

Can you please explain to me why Mary is so important to all of you? I'm not asking this question to offend anyone, I am really interested in your answers.

Becuase she is our heavenly mother. She cares for us, prays for us and protects us from the evil one.

benedictaoo · Mar 6, 2009

fleethefire said:
I'm confused. You are saying that Mary needed Jesus. According to Revelations chapter 20 there will be a judgment, and anyone's name that is not written in the lamb's book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. We will be judged by what is written in the books. Rev. 20:12

In order for your name to be written in the lamb's book of life you must accept
Jesus as your savior, and believe in Him. John 3:16, Mark 16:15-16. Only someone who is in danger needs to be rescued. And only someone who is a sinner needs a redeemer. We need Jesus because we are sinners.

If we were sinless then we would not need a savior.

When the Jews were imprisoned in Egypt, they needed to be rescued. God delivered them from Pharaoh's hand, and brought them out of Egypt. If they had been obedient to God, they would have had no need to be rescued.

Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. As a result of this disobedience they were separated from God. Disobedience to God is sin.

I'm just not seeing where "full of grace" equates to a state of being sin free.

Mary did accept Christ.. she accepted Him into her womb. I'd say that's accepting Him.

Mary did need a savior just like us, as I said before God saved her at her conception where He preserved her from original sin.

I'm not getting why in the world this is confusing or impossible. God created Eve sin free... He can't create His own mother that way?

if you were God, would you not create her to be sin free?

Catherineanne · Mar 7, 2009

fleethefire said:
I don't think my mother's state at the time of her marriage is relevant to this discussion.

Indeed it is not. Glad you can see that much at least. How do you think Christ feels about you discussing his mother's state of sin? Pretty miffed, I would say.

It is not relevant to any discussion of who Christ is to us, to discuss who his mother is to God, other than in the most respectful way, reflecting what the Scriptures tell us. Mary herself says in Luke that all generations will call her blessed. I personally would be very careful indeed not to be outside those generations, but rather to be included in those who regard her as blessed above any other person on earth in bearing the Christ child for us all.

After that, remember the advice of Thumper's dad. If you can't say something nice, best not say anything at all.

Honour thy father and thy mother.

Catherineanne · Mar 7, 2009

Epiphanygirl said:
Because she is the greatest Human example we have( *aside from the human Christ)

She said "Yes" You might think of it as her being the first to accept Jesus into her heart.....her life.........her womb..........the perfect example of motherhood.

we honor so much in this world........and wrongly so.........we put movie stars, athletic stars. political figures as being role models.................

What about the Mother of God, our Lord and Saviors mother? Can we not show her respect like we should our own Mother? Honor Thy Mother and Father

benedictaoo · Mar 7, 2009

I think you two are missing the point... EG and Cathrineann.

Mary is just a creature who is dead and gone, who is with God in spirit. She's old news.

WE down here, now we're the elect, the Born Again, the righteousness of God... of course WE are far greater... what's wrong with y'all? and when we die, we will be with God in spirit too and then we will be nobody's... it's all about who's in the flesh, not who is in heaven. The ones in the flesh, those are the saints, those are the one God pays attention to.

Catherineanne · Mar 7, 2009

benedictaoo said:
I think you two are missing the point... EG and Cathrineann.

Mary is just a creature who is dead and gone, who is with God in spirit. She's old news.

WE down here, now we're the elect, the Born Again, the righteousness of God... of course WE are far greater... what's wrong with y'all? and when we die, we will be with God in spirit too and then we will be nobody's... it's all about who's in the flesh, not who is in heaven. The ones in the flesh, those are the saints, those are the one God pays attention to.

I assume you can back up this poppycock with Scripture?

You can start with telling me where it says that there is such a thing as a dead Christian, anywhere in the universe.

benedictaoo · Mar 7, 2009

Catherineanne said:
I assume you can back up this poppycock with Scripture?

You can start with telling me where it says that there is such a thing as a dead Christian, anywhere in the universe.

LOL... I was being facetious and a little sarcastic to make a point. Cuz you know explaining it straight up never does any good... maybe if we turn it around folks can see how silly their objections are.

Catherineanne · Mar 7, 2009

benedictaoo said:
LOL... I was being facetious and a little sarcastic to make a point. Cuz you know explaining it straight up never does any good... maybe if we turn it around folks can see how silly their objections are.

Sorry, didn't realise. Not awake properly. Very embarrassed. I thought it was odd, but did not think enough.

I must try not to get triggered when I read disrespectful comments about Our Lady. She doesn't need me to protect her; it is most certainly the other way round.

benedictaoo · Mar 7, 2009

No no no, she does need us to defend her and make her better known and there is great merit in our defending her.

Part of the devotion to the IH (which today is the first Sat.) goes to making reparation for all the blasphemies and rejection of her.

fleethefire · Mar 7, 2009

Matthew 12:47-50
47Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You." 48But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
49And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!
50"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

Are Jesus words here disrespectful to Mary?

benedictaoo · Mar 7, 2009

fleethefire said:
Matthew 12:47-50
47Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You." 48But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
49And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!
50"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

Are Jesus words here disrespectful to Mary?

and who is it that did the will of the Father?

Mary.

MrStain · Mar 7, 2009

There has been a lot of good discussion about our Blessed Mother, but since the OP also asked about purgatory I thought I'd share a few thoughts on the topic.

Let us first begin with a few verses from Pauls first letter to the Church of Corinth on the topic of Purgatory.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15:
For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each ones work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each ones work, of what sort it is. If anyones work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyones work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The above verses make it clear that it will be a serious purgatorial event when we meet God face-face, but let me come back to them later.

First and foremost, lets consider a few teachings of Christ. As Christians we are to follow Jesus command to do our best and follow His example out of love and obedience. He said, If you love me, keep my commandments (Jn 14:15) and be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. (Mt 5:48) This is a tough task, but that does not mean we give up in seeking holiness because we fall-short on the road to God. The Apostle Paul also speaks of this pursuit of sanctity in his epistle to the Hebrews, when he states we must pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord. (Heb 12:14) Did you see that last part? It says without holiness no one can see God. Now, flip over to the last book of your bible and look at Revelations chapter 21 which speaks of the New Jerusalem i.e. Heaven. We are reminded again that there shall by no means enter it [Heaven] anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie (Rev 21:27) These verses makes it very clear that only things that are holy will be allowed entrance into Heaven. That leads us back to the verses from 1st Corinthians that I began this post with. In that statement to the Corinthians, Paul makes it very clear that although we can be saved in that Day, we should expect to be tested. If we have profane works i.e. sins that are burned up during the testing we will suffer loss as through fire. This is what is meant by purgatory. It is a process to prepare us for sin-free entrance into the presence of our Lord. How long will each of us be there if at all? Got me, but I recall Jesus saying, Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. (Mt 5:26) when speaking about the prisoner who was turned over to the judge.

Let me now say I dont want to come off as a purveyor of doom and gloom. There is the Gospel aka the good news. The good news is that Jesus, for our salvation, came down from Heaven as we say in the ancient Creed. The Lord offers us great graces in our walk if we just seek them out and accept them. Fortunately, He has given His Church the ability to dispense His great graces through the Sacraments. It is through them that we receive our daily bread and receive the sure forgiveness for our sins. I see these as lifelines from Jesus. We just have to reach out and He will reach back to pull us in.

JoabAnias · Mar 7, 2009

fleethefire said:
I brought this question up on another forum and it was suggested that I start a new thread.

My first question is what scripture verses support the idea of Purgatory?

And my second question is can anyone provide scripture verses to support the idea that Mary was without sin?

From one of my favorite sites that provides the verses you seek:

The Communion of Saints

Mary the Mother of Jesus: Saint

Eschatology: The Last Things

fleethefire · Mar 7, 2009

I have to ask a serious question. I was following another thread and it linked to a website. On that website was a daily prayer to Mary.

Here is excerpt from that prayer:

"In thine intercession I put all my trust, all my hope of salvation"

Would you truthfully put all of your hope in your salvation upon Mary's intercession?

Please help, questions about Purgatory and Mary.

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