Please help me understand this argument

[Tatsukun]

Do you know what Abracadabra means? How about Allahu Akbar? Where do you draw the line between saying something normal and something "Magical"?

So if I ask my brother for $20 and he gives me $20 that's magic? You are basically saying that asking someone else for help is magic if you receive aid. Like I said this only appeals to those who believe GOD is fictional.

Well, asking your brother for $20 and getting it certainly isn't magical (unless your brother is like mine).

But, sure, I get your point. For theists, I am assuming (always dangerous I know) that asking a god for something is a lot like asking your brother for something. But do you see how a wizard asking whatever source he claims his magic comes from also fits this bill? So we're back to the big black box question.

How can you tell magic from prayer? Or, like I suspect, are they the same thing with a different word based on your perception?

-Tatsukun

 

[Tatsukun]

We both should know that was not the intended definition for this discussion.

It amazes me how quickly arguments shift to arbitrary semantics.

Here let me quote some arbitrary definitions too:

1. conjuring tricks: conjuring tricks and illusions that make apparently impossible things seem to happen, usually performed as entertainment
2. inexplicable things: a special, mysterious, or inexplicable quality, talent, or skill
3. supposed supernatural power: a supposed supernatural power that makes impossible things happen or gives somebody control over the forces of nature. Magic is used in many cultures for healing, keeping away evil, seeking the truth, and for vengeful purposes.
4. practice of magic: the use of supposed supernatural power to make impossible things happen

Humble (I am calling you "Humble" because "Muslim" seemed a bit odd as a name), thanks for that list. It's interesting to see how people break things down.

But, I always did include asking a god to do things that are beyond human control as magic. If you have a minute, could you read my above post about the big black box? How would you answer? It's always interesting to get as many people's opinions about these things as possible.

-Tatsukun

 

[humblemuslim]

Well, asking your brother for $20 and getting it certainly isn't magical (unless your brother is like mine).

But, sure, I get your point. For theists, I am assuming (always dangerous I know) that asking a god for something is a lot like asking your brother for something. But do you see how a wizard asking whatever source he claims his magic comes from also fits this bill? So we're back to the big black box question.

How can you tell magic from prayer? Or, like I suspect, are they the same thing with a different word based on your perception?

-Tatsukun

This definition for 'magic' basically amounts to control/manipulation of forces in nature. Notice all the definitions for magic are about self, there is no personal helper. The conjurer/caster is the one directly channeling some sort of power over forces to produce some end.

Magic is about someone exercising their own power(s).

Prayer, in one sense, is about asking for the intervention/aid of GOD.

Magic yields inanimate forces.

Prayer seeks the force of a living GOD.

Now of course this is strictly from a Monotheistic POV. People who pray to nature might have a different take on the matter. Praying to nature might be more akin to the 'magic' you speak of, though you'll have to seek their perspective on that.

 

[humblemuslim]

Humble (I am calling you "Humble" because "Muslim" seemed a bit odd as a name), thanks for that list. It's interesting to see how people break things down.

But, I always did include asking a god to do things that are beyond human control as magic. If you have a minute, could you read my above post about the big black box? How would you answer? It's always interesting to get as many people's opinions about these things as possible.

-Tatsukun

Of course. That is the entire point of your thread. But defining 'magic' arbitrarily is not exactly going to get us anywhere. There are many different definitions and understandings for this word. If one was to define 'magic' as the very conclusion they are trying to achieve, any discussion is moot.

It is as if I claim all atheists are hostile towards theism then go on to state a specific definition that states that atheism is the manifestation of hostility towards theism. Upon doing that there is no need to discuss anything, since the individual has already stated their conclusion in the form of a definition, not an argument.

 

[Tatsukun]

Magic is about someone exercising their own power(s).

Prayer, in one sense, is about asking for the intervention/aid of GOD.

Magic yields inanimate forces.

Prayer seeks the force of a living GOD.

(Bold added)

Well, ok. I can see that you're drawing a pretty strict line between the two, and bacing that on who is actually doing the work. So how do you feel about native american shamen, who called on the winds, or Voodoo priests who call on the spirits, or even a religious person who prays to a different god. Are all of those prayer by this definition?

I notice that you refer to a living god, which as far as I can tell you are using to mean only the christian god. Am I correct in that reading?

Thanks for contributing. This is really interesting.

-Tatsukun

 

[humblemuslim]

(Bold added)

Well, ok. I can see that you're drawing a pretty strict line between the two, and bacing that on who is actually doing the work. So how do you feel about native american shamen, who called on the winds, or Voodoo priests who call on the spirits, or even a religious person who prays to a different god. Are all of those prayer by this definition?

I notice that you refer to a living god, which as far as I can tell you are using to mean only the christian god. Am I correct in that reading?

Thanks for contributing. This is really interesting.

-Tatsukun

This falls under self manipulation of inanimate forces.

It depends on what we are considering the 'spirits'. If this is ancestral worship, then I would think it falls under prayer. They are seeking the force of their ancestors, who are in some afterlife form. But having been around the block a time or two, there is a good possibility those who practice ancestral worship would disagree with my understanding of their practices.

This all depends on their beliefs regarding this deity. Not all deities are considered living deities. There is a wide spectrum of beliefs. If the person believes the deity amounts to forces of nature then it falls back to manipulation of inanimate forces. Now of course we have not even considered the possibility someone believes the forces of nature are living.

Though Christians make ubiquitous use of this phrase, I am using in a broad sense to refer to a self-aware deity. It is not necessarily attached to any single religions perspective, yet my personal understanding comes from the Abrahamic faiths, specially Islam.

===============================

Concisely:

In order to be prayer -->

*Seek power/aid/help from a self-aware (i.e. "Living") source.


In order to be magic -->

*Exercise one's power(s) to manipulate/control forces beyond what one's body naturally contains (Commonly inanimate forces, though not exclusively).

 

[Tatsukun]

Though Christians make ubiquitous use of this phrase, I am using in a broad sense to refer to a self-aware deity. It is not necessarily attached to any single religions perspective, yet my personal understanding comes from the Abrahamic faiths, specially Islam.

Yeah, Humble, sorry about that. I think I slipped a gear there and forgot the second half of your user name (and the info next to it). It is interesting to me to hear you use this phrase though. I have heard a lot of christians use it to refer to the resurection story of Jesus. In fact, I have heard some christians use that phrase as a way to distinguish Christianity and Islam. But that's a tangent, and we can talk about that in PMs if you have thoughts about it.

Anyway, back on topic. About the distinction you've drawn for me between magic and prayer. I get what you are saying about animate / inanimate there. That's an interesting distinction. But, can we agree that if you don't know who / what someone is calling upon (as in the black box question above) the two are otherwise identical?

-Tatsukun

 

[humblemuslim]

Yeah, Humble, sorry about that. I think I slipped a gear there and forgot the second half of your user name (and the info next to it). It is interesting to me to hear you use this phrase though. I have heard a lot of christians use it to refer to the resurection story of Jesus. In fact, I have heard some christians use that phrase as a way to distinguish Christianity and Islam. But that's a tangent, and we can talk about that in PMs if you have thoughts about it.

Anyway, back on topic. About the distinction you've drawn for me between magic and prayer. I get what you are saying about animate / inanimate there. That's an interesting distinction. But, can we agree that if you don't know who / what someone is calling upon (as in the black box question above) the two are otherwise identical?

-Tatsukun

So we have someone how calls upon an unknown entity and receives some visible effect? Is the calling party ignorant or the audience?

In the end whether someone classifies something as magic or prayer is going to be a matter of perception. However classification based on perception tells us nothing but the reality of the situation.

If I perceive the wind as inanimate and in reality it is self-aware (i.e. "Living"), then although I would view that as magic the reality of the situation would be that such aid sought would be prayer.

I am stating things strictly from a reality POV without suggesting what is reality. This POV can be equally applied across different religions. Although I personally state some items that revolve around GOD, they could equally be applied to nature and its forces, other gods I do not recognize, and other forces I do not recognize.

And I have slightly modified my requirements for magic in that the force must be beyond what one's body naturally contains. Otherwise the way I stated it, lifting one's leg would be misclassified as magic.

 

[Tatsukun]

So we have someone how calls upon an unknown entity and receives some visible effect? Is the calling party ignorant or the audience?

In the end whether someone classifies something as magic or prayer is going to be a matter of perception. However classification based on perception tells us nothing but the reality of the situation.

If I perceive the wind as inanimate and in reality it is self-aware (i.e. "Living"), then although I would view that as magic the reality of the situation would be that such aid sought would be prayer.

I am stating things strictly from a reality POV without suggesting what is reality. This POV can be equally applied across different religions. Although I personally state some items that revolve around GOD, they could equally be applied to nature and its forces, other gods I do not recognize, and other forces I do not recognize.

And I have slightly modified my requirements for magic in that the force must be beyond what one's body naturally contains. Otherwise the way I stated it, lifting one's leg would be misclassified as magic.

Hmm. Interesting. So I assume you believe prayer can have an effect on the world. Do you believe there is such a thing as magic as well?

-Tatsukun

 

[Pure760]

The power of God is out of reach until you learn to use it with perfect love. Jesus materialized bread because he saw the people around him starving and figured it was the right thing to do at the time. Not to show off, not for fun but because people were suffering.

If you were to have all his power (teleportation, materialization, time travel ect.) what would you do with it? I'm certain it would of self entertainment and therein lies the wall that keeps satan out of the kingdom.

What I find amazing about Jesus is that he could've escaped at any time during his crusifiction but did'nt because it would have been somthing for himself. This is the mindset everyone will learn eventually.

 

[humblemuslim]

Hmm. Interesting. So I assume you believe prayer can have an effect on the world. Do you believe there is such a thing as magic as well?

-Tatsukun

I do not know. But to those who practice magic, whether truly effective/real or not, it is something that is condemned by my religion.

One reason that appeals to me for holding this belief is such activities detract one from seeking GOD. People begin to evoke their own power(s) or the power(s) of sources other than GOD. It might be that humans are interacting with Jinn (Which are commonly misidentified as demons, when they are akin to humanity having freewill to choose good and evil).

If Jinn do exist beyond our ability to immediately perceive them, then their interaction of our perceived world would be seen as magic in some sense. In reality such an activity, per the requirements I have come to, would amount to praying to Jinn for aid, since Jinn are believed to be self-aware beings.

 

[vijays]

Prayer has No meaning .. it Does Nothing.....

Human Believes or needs some one to hear his sorrows... He believes God can help him...
My Opinion on Prayer is , "Praising of God is like a Bribe, We do praise the God to get some Good things from him"...

 

[Chesterton]

Prayer has No meaning .. it Does Nothing.....

Human Believes or needs some one to hear his sorrows... He believes God can help him...
My Opinion on Prayer is , "Praising of God is like a Bribe, We do praise the God to get some Good things from him"...

"Pūjā (Devanagari: पूज&#2366 (alternative transliteration Pooja, Sanskrit: reverence, honour, adoration, or worship) is a ceremony of gratitude or a religious ritual performed as an offering to various deities, distinguished persons, or special guests. It is done on a variety of occasions and settings, from daily puja done in the home, to temple ceremonies and large festivals, or to begin a new venture.[1] Puja is modeled on the idea of giving a gift or offering to a deity or important person and receiving their blessing."

Source: Wiki - Puja (Hinduism)

 

[humblemuslim]

Prayer has No meaning .. it Does Nothing.....

Human Believes or needs some one to hear his sorrows... He believes God can help him...
My Opinion on Prayer is , "Praising of God is like a Bribe, We do praise the God to get some Good things from him"...

I'm not following your statement. It eludes me how one can bride an all sufficient GOD.

The true believer will praise GOD even in hard times. Consider the story of Job.

 

[vijays]

@Chesterton

i dont do Pujas... i am trying to reach God by knowing myself and eternity ... i dont belive in prayers or pujas.....

 

[Tatsukun]

The power of God is out of reach until you learn to use it with perfect love. Jesus materialized bread because he saw the people around him starving and figured it was the right thing to do at the time. Not to show off, not for fun but because people were suffering.

If you were to have all his power (teleportation, materialization, time travel ect.) what would you do with it? I'm certain it would of self entertainment and therein lies the wall that keeps satan out of the kingdom.

What I find amazing about Jesus is that he could've escaped at any time during his crusifiction but did'nt because it would have been somthing for himself. This is the mindset everyone will learn eventually.

Sorry, I am not sure I 100% followed that. Are you saying that Jesus Christ has magic / super powers, but chose not to use them for some moral reason? That's certainly a common thread throughout mythology, but I don't usually hear it applied to Jesus.

I always learn interesting things on this board!

-Tatsukun

 

[Montalban]

I'm not following your statement. It eludes me how one can bride an all sufficient GOD.

I absolutely agree with you here.

 

[Montalban]

@Chesterton

i dont do Pujas... i am trying to reach God by knowing myself and eternity ... i dont belive in prayers or pujas.....

How is that bribing your god?

 

[Pure760]

Sorry, I am not sure I 100% followed that. Are you saying that Jesus Christ has magic / super powers, but chose not to use them for some moral reason? That's certainly a common thread throughout mythology, but I don't usually hear it applied to Jesus.

I always learn interesting things on this board!

-Tatsukun

For one thing he said it was going to happen so he could've done somthing to avoid it. I think he may have had to do it in order to ascend completely. I believe he had a stitch of worldlyness in him, hence his fasting and communication with satan.

Think of a hollow plastic ball in a tank of water, it would naturally float to the surface. Now think of ego as rocks that fill the ball and make it sink. His ball had much less rocks than anyone else. He needed to go threw the crusifiction to empty his ball completely.

Probably got off topic there..

 

[Tatsukun]

For one thing he said it was going to happen so he could've done somthing to avoid it. I think he may have had to do it in order to ascend completely. I believe he had a stitch of worldlyness in him, hence his fasting and communication with satan.

Think of a hollow plastic ball in a tank of water, it would naturally float to the surface. Now think of ego as rocks that fill the ball and make it sink. His ball had much less rocks than anyone else. He needed to go threw the crusifiction to empty his ball completely.

Probably got off topic there..

Hmm. Sorry, I think you lost me there.

Getting back on topic here. Everyone seems to be saying that prayer and magic (assuming magic works) have the same end result (changing the world in supernatural ways), and the only distinction is that magic calls on inanimate forces and prayer calls on animate ones.

Is that a good summary?

Let's assume that's close enough. Back to my original question. If someone prays to a god or gods and gets what they want (as in the above black box granny example) is that proof enough for the existence of these gods?

-Tatsukun