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Please help me understand this argument

Tatsukun

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If I knew magic, I would leave this God that I believe out of the loop, then who would need him anyway, I would do my own magic and get rich/wealthy/healthy and everything I could imagine... I would say some gibberish and drive to work with a different sports car everyday. I could probably fly like Superman. Unfortunately, I don't know this Abracadabra guy and therefore can't perform any magic.

Right, that's what you were saying before, and I agree. This is the "two types of prayer" thing. But I have run across people who claim that their religion gives them access to magic. It was just a few days ago on this very site where someone was claiming they can heal the sick with prayer or something, and another was arguing that via prayer they had moved their car or something (sorry about the vagueness here, I don't want to cause people to go hunt these posters up).

That's the sort of "prayer" (I'm putting it in quotes here because so many people disagree with the idea that this is even prayer as intended) I am asking about.

-Tatsukun
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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Prayer is nothing more than talking to yourself, people who believe in a God have been able to convince themselves that there is a God, and the only way to do that is to make up a God of their own, their religion gives them a template as to what their God should be like but after that their God is up to them.
Just because you are not convinced doesn't mean there is NO God, that has been your problem besides your misconceptions and ignorance about some religions and faith.

Prayer is for making the believer feel better about themselves.
Another misconception, since most prayer is directed for the will of God rather than one's own, it makes the person more on the edge however this is where trust comes in, and the person would be satisfied with the concern no matter the outcome. If you want to feel better, go take a jog, faith is not about feeling better.

I say this for one very good reason, what happens to the God when a believer stops believing in the God?
Nothing. He gives you freewill and you can stop believing anytime, He won't force anyone back in faith.

to stop believing the believer must get rid of the God in their head, when the God is gone the believer has changed themselves into a disbeliever and the God disappears back into thin air.
If you had done so, you would not have been here. You have a disturbed soul, so the only way you can make that dissipate is to come here and pass your ideas to others. For you, it is about feeling better. Non-existent things can't disappear into thin air remember?

Of course if you are a believer all the above is garbage
It is first class, high quality, low fiber STINKING GARBAGE!

because you don't think your God is just in your mind,
but should you ever decide to question your belief your God will start packing, just in case you change your mind.
If that made sense. Learn why people believe before judging their beliefs. Militant atheism really doesn't help you in that respect though...
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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Right, that's what you were saying before, and I agree. This is the "two types of prayer" thing. But I have run across people who claim that their religion gives them access to magic. It was just a few days ago on this very site where someone was claiming they can heal the sick with prayer or something, and another was arguing that via prayer they had moved their car or something (sorry about the vagueness here, I don't want to cause people to go hunt these posters up).

That's the sort of "prayer" (I'm putting it in quotes here because so many people disagree with the idea that this is even prayer as intended) I am asking about.

-Tatsukun
Since I am a believer, I can ask my GOD to heal somebody according to His will, or resolve a situation that is bothersome in life, but I can't do anything on my own, at least that is Christianity. There are those who claim doing these and performing these acts (Benny Hinn) but our faith doesn't teach us that... Our faith is about humility not showing off if that makes sense. What we receive, we ask for it. I don't know what to tell you about those in the OP and in this above quote. I would leave them alone.
 
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Isambard

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Since I am a believer, I can ask my GOD to heal somebody according to His will, or resolve a situation that is bothersome in life, but I can't do anything on my own, at least that is Christianity. There are those who claim doing these and performing these acts (Benny Hinn) but our faith doesn't teach us that... Our faith is about humility not showing off if that makes sense. What we receive, we ask for it. I don't know what to tell you about those in the OP and in this above quote. I would leave them alone.
If God does things according to his will, then why even bother asking? He's presummably already aware of the situation, so what's the point?
 
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Robban

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If God does things according to his will, then why even bother asking? He's presummably already aware of the situation, so what's the point?
God does not want us to be fatalists, unfortunatly many are.
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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If God does things according to his will, then why even bother asking? He's presummably already aware of the situation, so what's the point?
That is the point of Christianity. I do not know His will. That is the point. If I did, I would not move a finger either.
 
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Isambard

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That is the point of Christianity. I do not know His will. That is the point. If I did, I would not move a finger either.
I'm still not understanding the connection. How would being a Christian justify prayer if it would be futile anyways if what happens is determined by God's will? Does being a Christian give your prayer some sort of aditional power over the prayer of a non-Christian?
 
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Tatsukun

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Ok, so without some of the name-calling please, let me restate the question in a way that fewer people will object to (perhaps).

Let’s say there is a big black box, maybe a ten foot cube. It has a door on it but once closed, no sound can enter or escape. Let’s put this big black box (BBB) in a field.

Okay, so here I stand outside the BBB, and I have a deep wish. Maybe it’s something like my dear old granny getting brain surgery. I really, really, want her to live because I love her and she makes really good cookies.

Someone says they might be able help. They say they can improve the odds of my granny surviving. I say to go for it. This person goes in the box and 20 minutes later comes out. They say they have called on some external supernatural power, that it’s not guaranteed, but that they have done all they can.

Granny lives. Hurray!

So, was that magic or prayer? Are they different? If they are different, what do we need to know to decide which this was?

-Tatsukun
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
 
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Ambrosius

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Well, the thing is, maybe they're telling the truth, they prayed and something happened. That is not magic. It might not "make sense" yet still happen.

What atheists would have us do is then, is instead of accepting that it worked yet didn't fit into the materialistic worldview and the laws of causation, is say it didn't happen because it didn't fit into our preconceived notion of how things must be. How is that rational? It is not. It is not scientific, either.
 
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Isambard

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Well, the thing is, maybe they're telling the truth, they prayed and something happened. That is not magic. It might not "make sense" yet still happen.

What atheists would have us do is then, is instead of accepting that it worked yet didn't fit into the materialistic worldview and the laws of causation, is say it didn't happen because it didn't fit into our preconceived notion of how things must be. How is that rational? It is not. It is not scientific, either.
Since when did science incorporate magic?
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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I'm still not understanding the connection. How would being a Christian justify prayer if it would be futile anyways if what happens is determined by God's will?

Question: "Why pray? What is the point of prayer when God knows the future and is already in control of everything. If we cannot change God's mind, why should we pray?"

Answer:
For the Christian, praying is like breathing. It is easier to do it than to not do it. We pray for a variety of reasons. For one thing, prayer is a form of serving God (Luke 2:36-38) and obeying Him. We pray because God commands us to pray (Philippians 4:6-7). Prayer is exemplified for us by Christ and the early church (Mark 1:35; Acts 1:14; 2:42; 3:1; 4:23-31; 6:4; 13:1-3). If Jesus thought it was worthwhile to pray, we should also. If He needed to pray to remain in the Father’s will, how much more do we need to pray?

Another reason to pray is that God intends prayer to be the means of obtaining His solutions in a number of situations. We pray in preparation for major decisions (Luke 6:12-13); to overcome demonic barriers (Matthew 17:14-21); to gather workers for the spiritual harvest (Luke 10:2); to gain strength to overcome temptation (Matthew 26:41); and to obtain the means of strengthening others spiritually (Ephesians 6:18-19).

We come to God with our specific requests, and we have God's promise that our prayers are not in vain, even if we do not receive specifically what we asked for (Matthew 6:6; Romans 8:26-27). He has promised that when we ask for things that are in accordance with His will, He will give us what we ask for (1 John 5:14-15). Sometimes He delays His answers according to His wisdom and for our benefit. In these situations, we are to be diligent and persistent in prayer (Matthew 7:7; Luke 18:1-8). Prayer should not be seen as our means of getting God to do our will on earth, but rather as a means of getting God's will done on earth. God’s wisdom far exceeds our own.

For situations in which we do not know God's will specifically, prayer is a means of discerning His will. If the Syrian woman with the demon-influenced daughter had not prayed to Christ, her daughter would not have been made whole (Mark 7:26-30). If the blind man outside Jericho had not called out to Christ, he would have remained blind (Luke 18:35-43). God has said that we often go without because we do not ask (James 4:2). In one sense, prayer is like sharing the gospel with people. We do not know who will respond to the message of the gospel until we share it. In the same way, we will never see the results of answered prayer unless we pray.

A lack of prayer demonstrates a lack of faith and a lack of trust in God’s Word. We pray to demonstrate our faith in God, that He will do as He has promised in His Word and bless our lives abundantly more than we could ask or hope for (Ephesians 3:20). Prayer is our primary means of seeing God work in others' lives. Because it is our means of “plugging into” God's power, it is our means of defeating Satan and his army that we are powerless to overcome by ourselves. Therefore, may God find us often before His throne, for we have a high priest in heaven who can identify with all that we go through (Hebrews 4:15-16). We have His promise that the fervent prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much (James 5:16-18). May God glorify His name in our lives as we believe in Him enough to come to Him often in prayer.

Does being a Christian give your prayer some sort of aditional power over the prayer of a non-Christian?

What does God hear? What does God know? There is nothing that God does not know. There is no prayer that any man or woman has ever offered that God does not know about,

O Thou who dost hear prayer, To Thee all men come. (NASB) Psalms 65:2

He knows the content of every prayer ever offered. There is a difference between God hearing our prayers and God answering our prayer as we had desired. The question before us is, "Does God answer the prayers of non-Christians, that is, unbelievers or those who reject Him?"
When God Rejects Prayer. One time I heard a person say that God did not answer his/her prayers. I stopped and asked myself, "Is that true?" As I thought about the comment, I realized the person was really saying God did not give the person what he wanted. God always answers prayer. Sometimes the answer is no. Sometimes the answer is yes. God answers every prayer ever offered to Him but not necessarily like we want.
So, how does God decide when to give us what we want? Or, when does He say "yes!" The first clues come in 1 Peter 3:12 and 1 John 5:14,

FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE UPON THE RIGHTEOUS, AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER, BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL. (NASB) 1 Peter 3:12

And this is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. (NASB) 1 John 5:14
God says "yes" to the prayers of the righteous and to prayers that are according to His will. If you are righteous and asking according to God's will, He hears you!

He who turns away his ear from listening to the law, Even his prayer is an abomination.. (NASB) Prov. 28:9

So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you, Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood (NASB) Isaiah 1:15

If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear; (NASB) Ps 66:18

These passages tell us God will not hear the prayers of the wicked or things inconsistent with His will. And God will not answer the prayers of Christians either, if they are unrepentant (notice the word "regard").
 
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Tatsukun

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Well, the thing is, maybe they're telling the truth, they prayed and something happened. That is not magic. It might not "make sense" yet still happen.

What atheists would have us do is then, is instead of accepting that it worked yet didn't fit into the materialistic worldview and the laws of causation, is say it didn't happen because it didn't fit into our preconceived notion of how things must be. How is that rational? It is not. It is not scientific, either.

Okay, sure. I can see what you mean. I guess, from the non-theistic perspective all I want is for people to acknowledge that this is magic. Or, at the very least, that it is indistinguishable from magic.


I am totally fine with people believing magic exists in the world. I don't agree, but I am not here to make everyone agree with me. What I find strange is when people say prayer isn't magic because it involves their god.


From my perspective, it seems that one of the following must be true:


1) Prayer has no effect on the likelihood of things happening in certain ways

2) Prayer does have this effect, and is thus magic (or indistinguishable from it)

I am open to suggestions for a third possibility here. maybe I should have made this a poll? ? ?

-Tatsukun
 
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Tatsukun

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Bushmaster, thanks for another very detailed and interesting post. But, I am not sure it's that related to the original question. Then again, maybe I am just missing the connection.

I'm not wondering why people pray. I am wondering about the difference between "prayer" (the kind that is directed as causing a certain outcome) and "magic".

-Tatsukun
 
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Ambrosius

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Since when did science incorporate magic?

I never said it did. I said expecting people to deny what they have seen as true (that a prayer was effective) because it isn't possible according to the model of reality one has chosen (prejudice) isn't scientific. That is getting things backward, determining what is possible by what one has decided, before hand, arbitrarily, is possible, rather than figuring out what is possible objectively.
 
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Ambrosius

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Well, prayer is entreating a higher power for some reason and magic is supposed to be the direct manipulation of the universe by an individual through some kind of physical means, according to some kind of believed laws about the universe, ie. you do this that will happen, if done right. It is, basically, really just regular cause and effect type activity except that the usually there is some hitch up with it... ie. someone is imagining things are connected in a way they are not actually (like, sympathetic magic that has it that if you draw a picture of something you gain control over it). It is as simple as that IMO. Prayer is asking that things turn out some way, magic is attempting to make it happen on one's own through some esoteric method.
 
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Tatsukun

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Well, prayer is entreating a higher power for some reason and magic is supposed to be the direct manipulation of the universe by an individual through some kind of physical means, according to some kind of believed laws about the universe, ie. you do this that will happen, if done right. It is, basically, really just regular cause and effect type activity except that the usually there is some hitch up with it... ie. someone is imagining things are connected in a way they are not actually (like, sympathetic magic that has it that if you draw a picture of something you gain control over it). It is as simple as that IMO. Prayer is asking that things turn out some way, magic is attempting to make it happen on one's own through some esoteric method.

Oh, I see where we're not connecting. I am including in my definition of magic requests of supernatural powers (think Voodoo or a rain dance). Do you agree that this type of act (which I am calling magic) is not really distinguishable from prayer (again, using the type 2 prayer laid out by Bushmaster, essentially "making a request of a god and believing that makes what you want more likely to happen")?

Wow, that was a tangle of a sentence. Sorry! Maybe another example? How about just before a football game between the reds and the blues.

Team blue gets a wizard in, who chants and mixed reagents in a big vat and asks the spirits to help team blue win. Team red gets a religious person, who prays for team red to win.

Which team has the most supernatural mojo?

1) Both have mojo, they cancel out
2) Neither have mojo, it's not real
3) Only one has mojo (please explain which)
4) Other (please explain)

-Tatsukun
 
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nicknack28

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I didn't finish reading the entire thread quite yet.

If God does things according to his will, then why even bother asking? He's presummably already aware of the situation, so what's the point?

The Bible actually has accounts of prayer making God change his mind about things (an individual's pleading having impact), though that is actually more disturbing than heartening.

Bushmaster has given plentiful reasons as well.
 
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humblemuslim

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Magic - Anything or power outside of the natural world causing an effect on the natural world. Yes, an answered prayer would fall under the cateogory of magic.

We both should know that was not the intended definition for this discussion.

It amazes me how quickly arguments shift to arbitrary semantics.

Here let me quote some arbitrary definitions too:

1. conjuring tricks: conjuring tricks and illusions that make apparently impossible things seem to happen, usually performed as entertainment
2.
inexplicable things: a special, mysterious, or inexplicable quality, talent, or skill
3. supposed supernatural power: a supposed supernatural power that makes impossible things happen or gives somebody control over the forces of nature. Magic is used in many cultures for healing, keeping away evil, seeking the truth, and for vengeful purposes.
4. practice of magic: the use of supposed supernatural power to make impossible things happen
 
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humblemuslim

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Yeah, I think I should be clearer in what I mean by "magic words". I include the famous ones "Abracadabra" and such, but how are those different than "Our father who art in heaven..." or "Heavenly father..." or "Allahu Akbar..."

It seems like most people around here would consider a wiccan casting a spell by lighting a candle, calling on the spirits and expecting to change the world to be"casting a spell". What's the difference between that and lighting a candle, calling on your god(s) and expecting the world to change.

I think it's also important to point out here that there are clearly two types of prayer. Bushmaster best described one type, which I will call "hoping out loud" in which one talks to a god and doesn't expect anything to happen. The speaker know nothing will happen, but it's therapeutic to talk ones' problems out. That's NOT the kind I am talking about here. I am talking about the "I prayed for a puppy and the next day one showed up" sort of prayer.

I still don't get how claiming to be able to pray for things and get them is different than claiming to have magic powers (or maybe superpowers to put a more modem label on it).

-Tatsukun

Do you know what Abracadabra means? How about Allahu Akbar? Where do you draw the line between saying something normal and something "Magical"?

So if I ask my brother for $20 and he gives me $20 that's magic? You are basically saying that asking someone else for help is magic if you receive aid. Like I said this only appeals to those who believe GOD is fictional.
 
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