Please explain why Christians believe unsubstantiated, unverified claims?

[3sigma]

What claims - are you thinking?

Well, the ones in the OP for a start. Please read the OP and answer the questions it asks. Please explain why you believe such claims are true when they have never been substantiated and verified? Why don’t you consider such claims to be unconfirmed and withhold your belief?

Proof? - how long have you noticed evidence, and done your own research to proof whatever.

I’m sorry, but I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Could you please rephrase it so that it makes sense.

 

[AV1611VET]

Your description of faith here shows it to be imagination: the act or power of forming a mental image of something not present to the senses or never before wholly perceived in reality. Thank you for your explanation. It helps confirm that your God is imaginary and that religious believers use emotion rather than reason to arrive at their religious beliefs. As people provide more explanations, a clearer picture of why they believe unverified claims should emerge.

Well, let me clarify the picture even more ---

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

[3sigma]

Well, let me clarify the picture even more

I would prefer it if you answered the questions in my previous [post=50414940]post[/post], please.

 

[tansy]

You appear to be saying that you think personal experiences and feelings are more reliable than sound, objective evidence in determining the truth of a claim. Thank you for your explanation. It helps confirm that religious believers rely on intuition and lack critical thinking skills.

Well, my critical thinking skills certainly aren't as finely-honed as many people's, but what about the Christians who are scientists, philosophers etc, who one imagines have been trained to think? How about Christian psychologists, psychiatrists, doctors etc? All those people have surely got better brains or intellectual skills than I have, yet they still believe in God.
You'd probably be better off asking them, because they would be better ableto meet you on your own terms.

Another thing is, I don't thinkj that personal experiences are necessarily invalid. If I fall into water and find it's wet, surely that's a personal experience? If I want it further verified, I could get other people to get into the water and see if they think it's wet? Doesn't that go at least some way in validating my experience?

It comes down in the end , I think ,to God Himself proving Himself to you, but in order for Him to do that, you have to take Him at His word! And actually it's God Himself who gives you faith...but that would lead into a whole different discussion, so will leave that there.

 

[3sigma]

Well, my critical thinking skills certainly aren't as finely-honed as many people's, but what about the Christians who are scientists, philosophers etc, who one imagines have been trained to think?

Good point. It would appear that while some religious believers possess critical thinking skills and may apply critical thinking to other claims, they fail to apply critical thinking to religious claims. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because they are unwilling to apply critical thinking to their religious beliefs because they don’t want to find that their beliefs are unfounded? What could cause that reluctance to examine comforting beliefs? Perhaps they have an emotional need to believe the claims that they will never really die, that their prayers will be answered and that some benevolent being is watching over them. What do you think?

Another thing is, I don't thinkj that personal experiences are necessarily invalid. If I fall into water and find it's wet, surely that's a personal experience? If I want it further verified, I could get other people to get into the water and see if they think it's wet? Doesn't that go at least some way in validating my experience?

If you watch the Sun move across the sky, personal experience would tell you that the Sun orbits the Earth and, indeed, 18% of Americans and 19% in Great Britain actually believe this. This should tell you that personal experience is not a reliable indicator of the truth. Unless critical thinking is applied, it is easy to delude oneself into believing things that aren’t true. If you haven’t applied critical thinking to your beliefs to verify that they are true then why do you believe they are true? Is it because you want them to be true and you are reluctant to examine them too closely in case you discover they aren’t true?

It comes down in the end , I think ,to God Himself proving Himself to you, but in order for Him to do that, you have to take Him at His word! And actually it's God Himself who gives you faith...but that would lead into a whole different discussion, so will leave that there.

What you are saying here is that it comes down to assuming that your God exists and not examining that assumption critically to verify it. Why do you do that?

 

[AV1611VET]

I would prefer it if you answered the questions in my previous [post=50414940]post[/post], please.

You have 6 question marks in this post; going from wanting evidence, to wanting proof.

Prove it. Show me that the claims have been substantiated and verified. Show me that they are true. If you can’t prove that your God exists then why do you behave as though it has been proven? If you can’t show that the claims have been substantiated and verified then why do you behave as though they have been substantiated and verified? If you can’t show that the claims are true then why do you believe they are true? Why don’t you treat them as unconfirmed?


No, the question was why do you consider them to be verified? Show me that the claims have been verified. To pre-empt any potential misunderstandings here, to substantiate means to establish by proof or competent evidence and to verify a claim means to establish the truth, accuracy or reality of that claim. If you can’t establish the truth of those claims then why do you consider them to be true?

First of all --- let's set the record straight:

In scientific philosophy, there is no such thing as PROOF --- it doesn't exist.

I even created a thread --- 1 --- in which I show that no matter what Jesus does, it will not be accepted as scientific proof of anything.

Now let's look at EVIDENCE.

I have another thread I created --- IMO my magnum opus here --- 1 --- in which I show that no amount of evidence can be generated sufficiently enough to convince you guys, as it gives you guys the chance to explain to us the evidence you would consider acceptable --- and not one person is willing to answer it --- they just want to argue it.

And finally, I had a thread (I honestly don't know what happened to it) called my Mariana Trench Challenge (or something like that), in which I showed that scientists even walk by faith in their own documentation.

So, take your pick:

• Faith isn't gonna satisfy you guys - (they steadfastly denied it was 'faith').
• Evidence isn't gonna satisfy you guys.
• Proof isn't gonna satisfy you guys.

Only the Holy Spirit can get through to those who are this stubborn.

In John 12, God speaks to the people directly from the sky, and what do they say?

It thundered!

 

[tansy]

Good point. It would appear that while some religious believers possess critical thinking skills and may apply critical thinking to other claims, they fail to apply critical thinking to religious claims. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because they are unwilling to apply critical thinking to their religious beliefs because they don’t want to find that their beliefs are unfounded? What could cause that reluctance to examine comforting beliefs? Perhaps they have an emotional need to believe the claims that they will never really die, that their prayers will be answered and that some benevolent being is watching over them. What do you think?

Well, I can't speak for every believer...certainly some people are less able to look at things critically. But, from wwhat I've read and people I've talked to, many believers do in fact apply critical thinking to religious claims. And the believers I know, do not believe lightly. And, for myself, I have done and try to look at my beliefs as critically as I am able. This is one of the reasons I enjoy talking with atheists...they help me keep my thinking in perspective.
As it is, it is always possible that we may die and find it was all hogwash - or maybe someone like Erik von Daniken was right...but with my dealings with what I perceive to be God, I don't think so.




I quite agree with what you say, and this is why I am always interested in what people have to say. I have watched programmes that suggest maybe some people are "wired" in their brains to have religious experiences, or that they are more disposed to having religious beliefs. I've read "The God Delusion" and can see from an atheist's point of view that maybe religious belief was an evoutionary sort of thing...I've also watched Richard Dawkins on television, and so on.

What you are saying here is that it comes down to assuming that your God exists and not examining that assumption critically to verify it. Why do you do that?

Well, firstly, I never categorically made the assumption that God exists. When I actually started to try and find out if He existed, I read various books, amongst which ,ones trying for example, to disprove who Jesus was.
In the end, as I've said on other threads, I thought the only way to find out was to ask Him Himself. I thought, if He does exist and He wants me to know Him, He will anser me. I f He doesn't exist then He won't. And in a nutshell,. I believe that He did answer me. But if I were to attempt to explain to you how He answered me, you would probably say that it was unverifiable, subjective, self-delusional etc.
In a way, a lot of stuff ends up in a philosophical discussion - isn't there such a thing as the philosophy of science, I seem to have read somewhere?

 

[Maranatha27]

Hi sigma,

As a christian I believe that God exists and and the Bible is the word of God. I have never seen God, yet I love Him. I believed Gods testimony against me that I was a sinner and needed a Savior. When I came to that point in my life and turned to God and accepted Christ something happened. The Holy Spirit took up residence in my being, the second birth occured. If you were sitting next to me in the flesh, you would never know, you may at times see the fruit of the Spirit in my life, and mistake it for weakness. I know what has taken place in my being.

Now don't get me wrong the traitor is still within me, the desire to be well thought of, vanity, fornication, selfishness, pride just to name a few thing associated with the vileness of my old nature. These two natures will war in the believer until the redemption of the body. Now when a believer sins this presence becomes quenced and grieved. Just like you can grieve a person, the Holy Spirit of God can be offended. This cuts off communication with God. Now the believer will remain in that condition until confession is made to God, also washing of water by the Word. Simply put the believers cleansing agent is the Bible, it cleanses us from the filth of this world. For the believer the penalty of sin, which is death was placed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

There are also other things that strengthen a believers assurance of God. For me the nation of Israel is not only a sign that the age of grace is coming to a rapid conclusion, but a stamp of Gods faithfulness. If Israel was nuked and the nation was destroyed, I could confidently put down my Bible and declare that the God I serve is no God at all. Eziekiel prophesied that in the latter days Russia would lead an Arab Invasion on the nation of Israel. The main Arab player would be Persia aka modern day Iran.The Kings of the east are prophesied by the beloved apostle, to man a 200 million man army. The prophecy was given when the total population of the world was 200 million. The Bible prophesizes a global economy, a revived roman empire, apostasy in the church. Daniels prophecy in chapter 9 predicts the exact day that Christ would ride into Jerusalem on the colt of an ass. It may mean nothing to you, but it means everything to me.

Sigma you may be offeded with the God of Israel and may actually hate Him, truth be told He loves you personally and desires that you come to Him, you are His creature and He desires that you know Him and dwell with Him.

 

[ScreamingTenderness]

Please explain why you believe unsubstantiated, unverified claims? For example, the claims that God created humans, that the soul exists and that God exists have never been substantiated and verified. However, Christians believe those claims are true; they behave as though the claims have been substantiated and verified. Please explain why you believe such claims are true when they have never been substantiated and verified? Why don’t you consider such claims to be unconfirmed and withhold your belief?

because we have a spirit that lives within us, it is the only one in existence that is Holy, because i experience something supernatural everyday I have evidence of God, it is his Spirit i talk with.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Please explain why you believe unsubstantiated, unverified claims?

They are called assumptions. Everyone has them, not just Christians. Its an assumption to say God does exist. Its also an assumption to say God doesn't exist.

For example, the claims that God created humans, that the soul exists and that God exists have never been substantiated and verified.

That depends on how you unpack the meaning of "substantiated and verified."

For example, can you substantiate and verify that the soul does not exist? or that God does not exist? Or are these just assumptions that people claim are true?

All worldviews have assumptions.

However, Christians believe those claims are true; they behave as though the claims have been substantiated and verified. Please explain why you believe such claims are true when they have never been substantiated and verified? Why don’t you consider such claims to be unconfirmed and withhold your belief?

I have specific reasons to believe that Christian claims are true and reasonable, and these are strengthened through experiences. Have I "verified" everything in the Christian worldview? No. Its also impossible for anyone to verify every single scientific discovery and experiment for themselves. I didn't do any calculations for the speed of light, I have to trust that what is reported to be the speed is true. No matter what the worldview, you always have to trust someone and/or something along the way.

Christians trust that God has revealed Himself through Scripture. Naturalists (atheists) trust in reason alone, and think that matter - "star stuff" - is the only thing that exists. Hindus trust in the assumptions that history is circular and reincarnation is true. And Christians, atheists, and Hindus all act as if their unverified assumptions are true.


LDG

 

[Quaero]

I don’t.


I don’t accept as true the claims that life originated from nothing suddenly or that the universe appeared ex nihilo. I consider them to be unconfirmed. And I’m not taking the absolute view that your God doesn’t exist. I’m saying the claim that it does exist has never been substantiated and verified. If you disagree then verify the claim; prove that your God exists. I’m guessing that you believe the claim that your God exists is true, but if you can’t verify that then why do you believe it? Why do behave as though the claim has been verified?


I think the claims are unconfirmed. Why don’t you?


I don’t know how the universe and life originated; no one does. These questions are unanswered at the moment so I don’t believe any particular answer is true. However, you apparently do believe you have an answer to these questions. I’m asking you to tell me why you believe your answer is true when it has never been substantiated or verified?

As for why over five billion people worldwide believe in some kind of God, I suspect it is due to a combination of credulity and insecurity. I suspect that most people rely on intuition for answers and lack the critical thinking skills to determine whether what they believe is actually true. I also suspect that religions allay the fear of death and the unknown by promising eternal life and ease people’s anxiety by offering hope that their prayers will be answered and that some benevolent being is watching over them.

As we can see, you are wrong in your assumption about my answers.


I am not making the claims you assert that I make. You are fabricating claims I have not made. I can’t disprove these things, but because they have never been proven, I see no sound reason to consider them to be true. I consider these claims to be unconfirmed. Why don’t you?

All you’ve done in your response is evade the OP questions by attacking with a fallacious ad hominem tu quoque argument. You haven’t attempted to answer the questions in the OP at all. Please answer the questions in the OP. Please explain why you believe such claims are true when they have never been substantiated and verified? Why don’t you consider such claims to be unconfirmed and withhold your belief? If you aren’t going to attempt to answer the questions in the OP then please don’t bother responding any further.

That's ironic as every reply you've added to this post has another question in it, You are using rhetorical rhetoric to attempt to prove you're point so why cant I? However for the sake of argument I'll answer your question without using a single question of my own from this point on.

Please explain why you believe unsubstantiated, unverified claims? For example, the claims that God created humans, that the soul exists and that God exists have never been substantiated and verified. However, Christians believe those claims are true; they behave as though the claims have been substantiated and verified. Please explain why you believe such claims are true when they have never been substantiated and verified? Why don’t you consider such claims to be unconfirmed and withhold your belief?

I don't, I'm not Christian. God may have created humans and the soul. Since he has not been disproved or debunked I cannot make an judgment on the existence of God.. Yes Christians do believe that those claims are true, perhaps its just 2 billion delusional people live in happy fluffy land with a mystical god who loves them. I don't believe that all such claims are true, but nether can I declare with certainty that they are not true - so I'll experiment and attempt to personal validity the Judeo-Christian belief system, and if I fail then I know its a fallacy.

Why don’t you consider such claims to be unconfirmed and withhold your belief?

See my previous post, just because it is unconfirmed empirically its not to say thats it's untrue. I love my girlfriend, everyone who knows us will testify to this, however I can never prove this through observed reality or empirical inquiry, so I'll just have faith in it. A previous poster has mentioned the mathematical improbability of life, so once more I could pose the same question to you on your belief in science as an explanation for....everything.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Please explain why you believe unsubstantiated, unverified claims? For example, the claims that God created humans, that the soul exists and that God exists have never been substantiated and verified. However, Christians believe those claims are true; they behave as though the claims have been substantiated and verified. Please explain why you believe such claims are true when they have never been substantiated and verified? Why don’t you consider such claims to be unconfirmed and withhold your belief?

Well, that reeks of sincerity.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The question is how easily are you satisfied? How weak or lax are your criteria for determining the truth of a claim? Do you use sound evidence to determine the truth of a claim or do you rely on intuition, personal feelings, emotions and imagination to arrive at your beliefs and fail to apply critical thinking to those beliefs? Please show me how you substantiated and verified those claims in the OP so that I may gauge your critical thinking ability.

Why?

Then it appears that you do rely on intuition, personal feelings, emotions, imagination and logical fallacies to arrive at your beliefs and fail to apply critical thinking to those beliefs. Thank you for your explanation. It also helps confirm that religious believers rely on intuition and lack critical thinking skills.

Since we neither discussed or presented any of those cases for God's existence, who here is really relying on intuition, feelings, emotions, imaginations in claiming to have arrived at a conclusion or an ability to judge critical thinking skills?

 

[Merlin]

Please explain why you believe unsubstantiated, unverified claims? For example, the claims that God created humans, that the soul exists and that God exists have never been substantiated and verified. However, Christians believe those claims are true; they behave as though the claims have been substantiated and verified. Please explain why you believe such claims are true when they have never been substantiated and verified? Why don’t you consider such claims to be unconfirmed and withhold your belief?

Everything in science starts off as 'unsubstantiated, unverified claims'
What if Columbus had rejected the unsubstantiated, unverified claim of a round world?

Christians believe those claims are true; they behave as though the claims have been substantiated and verified.

so did Columbus. so did the wright brothers.

to demand substantiated and verified would be to stop all future learning.

 

[OldChurchGuy]

Please explain why you believe unsubstantiated, unverified claims? For example, the claims that God created humans, that the soul exists and that God exists have never been substantiated and verified. However, Christians believe those claims are true; they behave as though the claims have been substantiated and verified. Please explain why you believe such claims are true when they have never been substantiated and verified? Why don’t you consider such claims to be unconfirmed and withhold your belief?

I suppose much of my faith stems from growing up in a church which left me with many positive experiences. Thus it was easy to accept doctrines and theology without much concern since those around me seemed to accept them also.

As an adult I have more than once explored the idea that this faith is all an illusion. Responding to posts on this website as well as subscribing to About.com: atheism e-mails, and being active on other atheist websites such as gnawed.com has forced me to think long and hard about what I believe and why.

I freely admit my faith is subjective. It is based on various personal experiences which I have chosen to interpret as evidence of God's presence rather than chalking up the experience to random chance working in my favor.

The times I have concluded it is all an illusion has left me feeling empty rather than liberated. For me, if a conclusion on such a subjective matter leaves me feeling unfulfilled rather than uplifted, then I will choose to keep my faith.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

 

[DanielRB]

Hi, OldChurchGuy

I suppose much of my faith stems from growing up in a church which left me with many positive experiences. Thus it was easy to accept doctrines and theology without much concern since those around me seemed to accept them also.

As an adult I have more than once explored the idea that this faith is all an illusion. Responding to posts on this website as well as subscribing to About.com: atheism e-mails, and being active on other atheist websites such as gnawed.com has forced me to think long and hard about what I believe and why.

I freely admit my faith is subjective. It is based on various personal experiences which I have chosen to interpret as evidence of God's presence rather than chalking up the experience to random chance working in my favor.

The times I have concluded it is all an illusion has left me feeling empty rather than liberated. For me, if a conclusion on such a subjective matter leaves me feeling unfulfilled rather than uplifted, then I will choose to keep my faith.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Thanks for a refreshing, honest and open post.

I just wish that there were more like you on these forums!

Daniel