Please explain the Trinity

Ken-1122 · Nov 14, 2011

razeontherock said:
Why does that matter? The point is to know Him. I don't see how Trinity is helping you with that, and it is only a tiny speck ...

If the Trinity consists of Gods and a Godhead, I have to know what they are, and how they are different before I can understand the trinity.

K

razeontherock · Nov 14, 2011

The Son was there from the beginning - before the foundations of the world. (Which is where Trinity comes in, but i digress)

Also, the unbelievers putting up the 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 misunderstanding, really aren't helping anything here. There is no such representation

elopez · Nov 14, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
You seem to be using logic when you look at my claim, but you neglect to use this logic when looking at your own.

I am looking at both with logic. Logic says of your view that if there is one automobile, there cannot be three of the same automobile as a Ford, Chevy, and a Chrysler. I'll show you again to which you are not replying to again only in slightly different terms.

Ken-1122 said:
If you replace automobile with God and you replace the 3 Godheads: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost with the 3 cars: Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler, you will notice you and I are making the exact same claim yet you claim mine doesnt make sense, but yours does!

If we replace "automobile" with "God" then there is one God and one automobile, yes. Yet if we replace the three cars with the three people of the Trinity it doesn't make sense as there is only one automobile so there cannot be three cars, but with the people of the Trinity there are actually three separate people that exist. Since the three cars is not comparable to the mere existence of the three people of the Trinity, the analogy is weak. At that point automobile would not longer be valid as a replacement for God.

Ken-1122 said:
How do you do that? Is this the effects of that faith that you guys are required to have? Im not getting this

The relevant difference that you keep ignoring. Mainly it doesn't have much to do with faith.

someguy14 · Nov 14, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
I realize several people have asked for an explanation of the Trinity, but the answers given doesnt quite make sense to me and because I cant respond on those threads I have to start my own. So here is my questions:
*Is Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit the same God with 3 nicknames? if so how could one be the son and the other the father?
*Are they each a fraction of a God and only when together they are a complete God? (kinda like the "egg white, yolk, and shell" explanation I've heard before
*Or are they each 3 separate Gods? (Polytheism)
If something different please explain

Ken

Luke 3:22
And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

The Father: a voice came from heaven
The Son: Thou art my beloved Son
The Holy Ghost: descended in a bodily shape like a dove

razeontherock · Nov 14, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
If the Trinity consists of Gods and a Godhead, I have to know what they are, and how they are different before I can understand the trinity.

K

Right but what you responded to was saying that Trinity is only a tiny speck. You can ignore that and Godhead entirely, and not be hampered in the least in any attempt to know G-d

tinyfaith · Nov 14, 2011

Theres no point of trying explaining that trinity. Why? Dont you remember Jesus words once saying like we all have trouble understand earthly thing so why would i tell you heavenly busness!!

Jesus is the words Of God, the only truth.

But still it can be interresting to try to see. But knowing this Jesus saying i dont butter with people posting like if they knew what is trinity. But rather people who post their point of view

gaweatherford · Nov 14, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
So is that a yes???

K

To a certain depth the subject can be understood and articulated, as this forum has done, but no one can break down the phenomenon and paradox of the trinity into a observable science. Omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence characterize the "how" for the Trinity; so we can never fully comprehend it, but we can go so far and then take the rest for granted.

Another good Spurgeon quote-

I suppose, if any man looks long into the doctrine of the Trinity, he will be like one who gazes upon the sun, and will be apt, first, to be dazzled, and, then, to be blinded by the excessive light. If a man ask that he may understand this great mystery,and refuseth to believe until he does comprehend it, then he will be blinded, most assuredly.

ViaCrucis · Nov 14, 2011

I haven't gone through the whole thread, so I apologize if this has been hashed out in this thread already:

Ousia = substance, nature, essence or being. We say God is one Ousia, one Substance, one Being, one Nature and Essence.

Hypostasis = fundamental, or basic underlying reality or principle. The Hypostasis of the Father, the Hypostasis of the Son (etc). Often rendered as "person" in English in Trinitarian discourse, though this has its obvious problems.

One Ousia. Three Hypostases.

One God. Three Hypostases of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Father is God, because His Ousia; His Being, Nature, Essence, Substance is God.
The Son is God, because His Ousia; His Being, Nature, Essence, Substance is God.
The Spirit is God, because His Ousia; His Being, Nature, Essence, Substance is God.

Not three Gods. Why? Because the Ousia, the Essence, the Substance, the Nature, the Being is one. One. Unitary. Absolute. Undivided. Inseparable. Indivisible. One God.

Three Hypostases:

The Father is the Father, not the Son or the Holy Spirit.
The Son is the Son, not the Father or the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit, not the Father or the Son.

The Father is Father because He is Father of the Son.
The Son is Son because He is Son of the Father.
The Spirit is Spirit because He is the Spirit of the Father and the Son.

What the Father is, the Son is also: Because the Son is and has the same Ousia as the Father, and He is therefore God (the one and only God).

What the Father and Son are, the Spirit is also: Because the Spirit has the same Ousia as the Father and the Son, and He is therefor God.

The Father begets the Son, but is unbegotten.
The Son is begotten of the Father.
The Spirit is not begotten, but proceeds from the Father [and the Son].

The Father is distinct, but not separate from Son and the Spirit.
The Son is distinct, but not separate from the Father and the Spirit.
The Spirit is distinct, but not separate from the Father and Son.

The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Spirit is God.

One God, not three. One Substance, not three. One Nature, not three. One Essence, not three. One Being, not three. One Lord, not three. One Almighty, not three. One Infinite, not three. One Eternal, not three. One Good, not three. One Ousia, not three.

That is the Trinity. We worship God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither dividing the Ousia nor confounding the Hypostases.

One God. Holy Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

-CryptoLutheran

Nanopants · Nov 14, 2011

I attached a drawing I made of what I saw when I was converted. It's a horrible drawing and really doesn't do any justice to what I actually saw. Anyways, I don't know if it's compatible with the accepted theology of the trinity, but I've always wanted to know.

Ken-1122 · Nov 14, 2011

elopez said:
If we replace "automobile" with "God" then there is one God and one automobile, yes. Yet if we replace the three cars with the three people of the Trinity it doesn't make sense as there is only one automobile so there cannot be three cars,

Thats where you are getting confused! One automobile DOES equal 3 cars; a Chrysler, a Ford, and a Chevy! Weve been over this already. To say my Ford, Chrysler, and Chevy equals more than 1 automobile is as ridicules as suggesting the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit equals more than 1 God! Getting my drift???

elopez said:
The relevant difference that you keep ignoring. Mainly it doesn't have much to do with faith.

What Have I ignored?

Ken

Ken-1122 · Nov 14, 2011

someguy14 said:
Luke 3:22
And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

The Father: a voice came from heaven
The Son: Thou art my beloved Son
The Holy Ghost: descended in a bodily shape like a dove

I think I understand what youre saying; so where is it written that the Holy Ghost is God?

Ken

Ken-1122 · Nov 14, 2011

razeontherock said:
Right but what you responded to was saying that Trinity is only a tiny speck. You can ignore that and Godhead entirely, and not be hampered in the least in any attempt to know G-d

The question at hand is about an understanding about the Trinity. If the trinity consists of Gods and a God head, then IMO it is not a tiny speck, but something worth discussing.

Ken

Ken-1122 · Nov 14, 2011

tinyfaith said:
Theres no point of trying explaining that trinity. Why? Dont you remember Jesus words once saying like we all have trouble understand earthly thing so why would i tell you heavenly busness!!

Jesus is the words Of God, the only truth.

But still it can be interresting to try to see. But knowing this Jesus saying i dont butter with people posting like if they knew what is trinity. But rather people who post their point of view

When the men of the Catholic Church came up with the Trinity, do you think they understood it?

K

Ken-1122 · Nov 14, 2011

ViaCrucis said:
I haven't gone through the whole thread, so I apologize if this has been hashed out in this thread already:

Ousia = substance, nature, essence or being. We say God is one Ousia, one Substance, one Being, one Nature and Essence.

Hypostasis = fundamental, or basic underlying reality or principle. The Hypostasis of the Father, the Hypostasis of the Son (etc). Often rendered as "person" in English in Trinitarian discourse, though this has its obvious problems.

One Ousia. Three Hypostases.

One God. Three Hypostases of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Father is God, because His Ousia; His Being, Nature, Essence, Substance is God.
The Son is God, because His Ousia; His Being, Nature, Essence, Substance is God.
The Spirit is God, because His Ousia; His Being, Nature, Essence, Substance is God.

Not three Gods. Why? Because the Ousia, the Essence, the Substance, the Nature, the Being is one. One. Unitary. Absolute. Undivided. Inseparable. Indivisible. One God.

Three Hypostases:

The Father is the Father, not the Son or the Holy Spirit.
The Son is the Son, not the Father or the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit, not the Father or the Son.

The Father is Father because He is Father of the Son.
The Son is Son because He is Son of the Father.
The Spirit is Spirit because He is the Spirit of the Father and the Son.

What the Father is, the Son is also: Because the Son is and has the same Ousia as the Father, and He is therefore God (the one and only God).

What the Father and Son are, the Spirit is also: Because the Spirit has the same Ousia as the Father and the Son, and He is therefor God.

The Father begets the Son, but is unbegotten.
The Son is begotten of the Father.
The Spirit is not begotten, but proceeds from the Father [and the Son].

The Father is distinct, but not separate from Son and the Spirit.
The Son is distinct, but not separate from the Father and the Spirit.
The Spirit is distinct, but not separate from the Father and Son.

The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Spirit is God.

One God, not three. One Substance, not three. One Nature, not three. One Essence, not three. One Being, not three. One Lord, not three. One Almighty, not three. One Infinite, not three. One Eternal, not three. One Good, not three. One Ousia, not three.

That is the Trinity. We worship God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither dividing the Ousia nor confounding the Hypostases.

One God. Holy Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

-CryptoLutheran

Sounds like youre suggesting the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is only a fraction of God by themselves and when all combined they are a complete God.

K

ViaCrucis · Nov 14, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
Sounds like you’re suggesting the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is only a fraction of God by themselves and when all combined they are a complete God.

K

How did you get that from my post?

But just to clarify, no that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm saying that the Father is God (the totality of God), the Son is God (the totality of God) and the Spirit is God (the totality of God).

When I speak of the Father I refer to Him as God. Not a part or fraction of God. If I speak of the Father only I am not speaking of anything less than God in God's totality.

The same thing for both the Son and the Spirit.

That's why I carefully and explicitly said that God is indivisible, not separable. We can't divide God. We can't split God into parts. God is Absolute, One, Whole, etc.

The Father is God, because that is what the Father is. God is the Father's "is-ness", or "thing-ness" or if you prefer "what-ness".

The Father, seeing that He is Father, is the Father's "this-ness" or "who-ness".

We call the Father "Father" because He is Father of the Son. Rather straightforward. It's not merely something we perceive, being creatures looking from the outside (that's effectively the heresy of Modalism); it is something that is truly real--this is what theologians call the Ontological or Immanent Trinity, the very real relationships in regard to the interior and actual life of God as Trinity.

To put it more simply: The Father really is Father in His relationship to His Son, it isn't simply something we say as "outsiders looking in", or simply a "mask" we perceive, it's actual and real.

I'm getting slightly off track, however.

To put things in as best a visual manner possible--and it's not absolute and shouldn't be taken further than being merely a symbol--here is a traditional Russian icon of the angelic visitors of Abraham, often interpreted symbolically as an icon of the Trinity (known often as "Rublev's Trinity"):

The three visitors are interpreted (again, symbolically) as the Three Hypostases of the Trinity. This is God's interior life, of reciprocal, mutual, communion, fellowship and love.

It is not that when the three together "compose God", it's here that we understand the Three each distinctly is full of the other in loving communion.

Further, there is a word to describe this intimate, immanent, mutual and reciprocal sharing and communion within the interior life of the Trinity: Perichoresis.

The word, almost literally, refers to "around-dancing". It is the rhythm, the movement, the flow and ebb of the Three moving in concert, together in each other, with one another.

By this we mean that the Three are always in one another, together in each other. The Father is never alone; the Son is always in the Father, the Spirit likewise is always in the Father. The Father is always in the Son, as is the Spirit. Likewise the Son is always in the Spirit and the Father also. This movement, this perichoresis, this dance is pure and perfect love. Because God is love. It is not Self-love (of itself), it is Other-love.

The Father is always emptying Himself into the Son and the Spirit, the Son reciprocally is always emptying Himself back into the Father, and the Spirit is always emptying Himself into Father and Son. This innate, actual, and real giving of each other to the other constitutes the intimate and interior love of God. This is God.

-CryptoLutheran

elopez · Nov 15, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
Thats where you are getting confused! One automobile DOES equal 3 cars; a Chrysler, a Ford, and a Chevy! Weve been over this already. To say my Ford, Chrysler, and Chevy equals more than 1 automobile is as ridicules as suggesting the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit equals more than 1 God! Getting my drift???

I am not confused, and though we have been over this before you simply repeating it doesn't make it any more valid or sensible. I am of the opinion that three cars could not exist simultaneously if they are one automobile.

It's not as ridiculous as the Trinity because three people actually exist simultaneously, and even could as one God as they all have the same nature and will.

Ken-1122 said:
What Have I ignored?

I'm beginning to think that maybe you're not ignoring it but just not getting what I'm suggesting. Just because you come up with an analogy it isn't necessarily valid or even comparable to the thing being alluded to. An analogy can be incomparable and thus weak, not even an analogy at all if there are relevant differences in the two situations. In the case of your analogy, three cars do not exist at the same time (saying they do over and over does not make it so) when according to the Trinity three people do. That is the relevant difference that makes your analogy incomparable to the Trinity, and as such, weak.

someguy14 · Nov 15, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
I think I understand what youre saying; so where is it written that the Holy Ghost is God?

Ken

John 14:16 thru 18
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless:http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/john/14.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-a I will come to you.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Ken-1122 · Nov 15, 2011

elopez said:
I am of the opinion that three cars could not exist simultaneously if they are one automobile.

And I am of the opinion 3 persons can't exist simultaneously as one God
I guess this is something we are just gonna have to agree to disagree on huh?

Ken

Ken-1122 · Nov 15, 2011

someguy14 said:
John 14:16 thru 18
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

You keep quoting scriptures, but none of the scriptures answer the question I asked

K

razeontherock · Nov 15, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
I think I understand what youre saying; so where is it written that the Holy Ghost is God?

Ken

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

How many more ya need?

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