• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Please explain the difference

Status
Not open for further replies.

Treasure the Questions

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2004
1,174
69
64
✟1,704.00
Faith
Christian
I see some people who don't believe that God used evolution as part of his creation process call themselves "Young Earth Creationists". Does this mean there are different sorts of "Creationists"? If so, what are the different categories and what are differences in what they believe.

Perhaps this has already been discussed and someone can point me to an easy to understand explanation.

Karin
 

MatthewDiscipleofGod

Senior Veteran
Feb 6, 2002
2,993
268
48
Minnesota
Visit site
✟28,937.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Treasure the Questions said:
I see some people who don't believe that God used evolution as part of his creation process call themselves "Young Earth Creationists". Does this mean there are different sorts of "Creationists"? If so, what are the different categories and what are differences in what they believe.

Perhaps this has already been discussed and someone can point me to an easy to understand explanation.

Karin
You can find many different definitions for the term "creationist". I find the best definition though is someone who doesn't believe in goo to man evolution. That would leave 2 general camps of creationists. Those that believe that the earth in only thousands of years old and those that believe it's millions or billions of years old. The old earth creationists though would still say goo to man evolution did not take place. Not to complicate things and skip reading this part if you need to but then there are semi old earth creationists like Hugh Ross that do believe in goo to human like souless creatures evolution (not to full soul bearing human evolution though!). He's just on the edge of theistic evolution and it's sad to see how many people that are totally against theistic evolution don't realize that and promote him and his organization Reasons To Believe. I have written to some of these organizations and it's pretty sad to see how they dance around the issues, they seem to be purposly ignorant.
 
Upvote 0

Iosias

Senior Contributor
Jul 18, 2004
8,171
227
✟9,648.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
A CREATIONIST: A creationist is a person who rejects the theory of evolution and believes instead that the each species on earth was put here by a Divine Being. A Creationist might accept "micro-evolution" (changes in the form of a species over time based on natural selection), but rejects the notion that one species can-- over time-- become another species.

[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]YOUNG EARTH CREATIONIST: A young earth creationist believes that the earth is nowhere near the 4.6 billion or so years old that most scientists estimate, but is instead closer to 6,000 or so years old, based on the assumption the Genesis contains a complete listing of the generations from Adam and Eve to historical times.[/size][/font]
 
Upvote 0

Treasure the Questions

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2004
1,174
69
64
✟1,704.00
Faith
Christian
Thank you AV. I understand in general terms what a "Creationist" is as I sort of was one once. I am confused that there are different types, so thanks for explaining about the Young Earth sort. :)

As I still believe God created the world I'm not exactly not a creationist, I just believe evolution was one of the processes he used to create the variety of life-forms on earth. It's a matter of definitions, I think, but that's another thread.

I would be interested in what other types of creationists there are and how their ideas differ from those of the young earth sort - a potted version, put nice and simple, if possible.

Karin
 
Upvote 0

Iosias

Senior Contributor
Jul 18, 2004
8,171
227
✟9,648.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Treasure the Questions said:
I would be interested in what other types of creationists there are and how their ideas differ from those of the young earth sort - a potted version, put nice and simple, if possible.

Karin
Generally there are two groups of creationists Young Earth Creationists and Old Earth Creationists.

Old Earth Creationism is a variant of the Creationist view of the origin of the universe and life on Earth. It is typically more compatible with mainstream scientific thought on the issues of the age of the universe or earth than Young-Earth Creationism.

This may refer to the view that life was immediately created on a pre-existing old Earth. One variant rests on a literal reading of Genesis 1:1 as '"In the beginning, when the earth was formless and void", implying that the earth already existed, but had passed into decay during an earlier age of existence, and was being "shaped anew".

More commonly, some advocates of an Old Earth, in an attempt to harmonize mainstream science with biblical literalism, hold that the six days referred to are not ordinary 24-hour days, but rather much longer periods (of thousands or millions of years); the Genesis account is then interpreted as an account of a progressive creation, or sometimes a summary of life's evolutionary history. This view is often called "Day-Age Creationism".

On the first "day" God is said to have created light; on the second, the firmament of heaven; on the third, the separation between water and land, and the creation of plant life; on the fourth day the sun, moon, and stars; on the fifth day created marine life and birds; on the sixth day land animals, and man and woman.

The order of light, then the firmament, then stars, might be taken as a simplified description of modern theories of cosmology, namely the Big Bang, followed by cosmic inflation, followed by stellar evolution. Similarly, modern zoology believes that marine animals preceded land animals.

There are some creationists who hold the view that the six day period in the Genesis account of creation refers to the time spent by light traveling from the center of the universe at the time and point of creation.

Critics of the Old-Earth view of Creationism comment that the biblical order of the days of creation is inconsistent with modern scientific interpretation. For example, the Earth is unlikely to have existed before the Sun and all other stars, plant life could not have survived millennia without sunlight, flowering plants could not have been pollinated without insect life, and most birds could not survive long without terrestrial life, as is required by an Old-Earth view of the Biblical story.

Some however now hold the the Sun, Moon and Stars were only given their "mission" or status, by God on the fourth day, not created. Along with that, the Earth's discription in the first verse in Genesis being the mathmatical point the universe existed in before the Big Bang, not literally the Earth its self, in it's modern form.
 
Upvote 0

Iosias

Senior Contributor
Jul 18, 2004
8,171
227
✟9,648.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Young Earth Creationism is the belief that the Earth, and usually the universe, were created by a direct action of God a relatively short time ago. Such a belief is almost invariably held in conjunction with fundamentalist Christian beliefs, in which the first chapters of the biblical book of Genesis are taken to be a literal account of the creation of the universe, in six strictly 24-hour days. This differs from Day-Age Creationism which purports that "day" is used in Genesis before the creation of the sun or the earth and the dawn of earthly time. Young Earth Creationists generally believe that the age of the Earth is between 6000 and 20,000 years, although some believe in a "gap" of unspecified duration between the creation of Adam and Eve and the Fall — see Gap Creationism.

Such an interpretation conflicts with mainstream scientific views of the age of the earth and the origins of life. Young Earth Creationists generally believe that scientific belief in an old earth are the results of misinterpretations of evidence or erroneous assumptions. There is a widespread belief that evidence for a young earth is suppressed or ignored by the scientific mainstream. Although most Young Earth Creationists' primary reason for belief is a faith in the literal interpretation of Genesis, they do maintain that scientific observations, if correctly interpreted, would support their viewpoint.

Young Earth Creationists usually distinguish their own hypotheses from the Omphalos hypothesis put forth by Philip Henry Gosse. Gosse's hypothesis claims that, just as Adam had a navel, evidence of a gestation he never experienced, so also the Earth was created ex nihilo complete with evidence of a prehistoric past that never actually occurred. Gosse's hypothesis allows for a young earth without giving rise to any predictions that would contradict scientific findings; Young Earth Creationists, by contrast, attempt to re-interpret scientific data to support their hypothesis that the earth is in fact young.

Young Earth Creationists deny the Theory of Evolution, in particular the ideas and mechanisms of Macroevolution.

The Flood
Young Earth Creationists almost invariably believe also in a literal interpretation of Noah's flood as worldwide and total. Many explanations for perceived problems in young earth creationism come from this belief in a flood and subsequent ice age. This area of creation science is called flood geology.

Young Earthers generally hold that most of the geological formations that we see were laid down during the time of the flood. It is believed that a vast amount of water descended on the Earth, covering it to a height of thousands of metres. Rock and soil was taken up into this water as silt, and was then deposited, forming the geological layers that we see today. They believe that much of the layering we see today was laid down not successively but simultaneously, in the same way as sand particles of different densities suspended in water will settle out to form layers in only a few seconds.

A worldwide flood is held to account for the erosion found in many spots, equivalent to millenia of conventional erosion. It is also held to account for the splitting of the continents on a timescale faster than that determined by conventional geology.

There is no evidence for a Genesis flood in ice cores, and there is evidence for multiple ice ages. However, should the Genesis flood be true, there is a strong possibility of no ice before the flood. Hence, no evidence of the flood being found in ice cores. There are various theories about what the earth was like before the flood. The fossil record does show what many evolutionists and creationists agree that the whole earth was more tropical at one time.

Distant Stars
One of the major problems in the Young Earth theory is visible astronomical objects many millions of light years distant. According to conventional science, the light that we are observing therefore began its journey millions of years ago, and this would not have been possible in a universe only a few thousands of years old.

Young Earthers have various responses to this question:

Light created in transit
Some Young Earthers hold that God might have created light that appeared to have come from these objects, but created it 'in transit'. This is a limited form of the Omphalos hypothesis. This theory is inherently unverifiable, and is a philosophical viewpoint rather than a scientific viewpoint.

The Institute for Creation Research supports this viewpoint, arguing that God would be creating a "very good" (Genesis 1:31) earth, by allowing Adam to see the stars already.

Inaccurate astronomy
Early responses by Young Earth Creationists tended to challenge the astronomical measurements, i.e. to assert that distant objects were not as far away as thought. When distance measurements were entirely reliant on red-shift calculations, it was easy to challenge the assumption that red-shift and distance were necessarily corrolated. Since measurements of astronomical distances are now much better authenticated this approach has fallen into disfavour.

Decreasing speed of light
Another approach was to consider that the speed of light may not have been constant. If the speed of light were signficantly faster in the past, light from distant objects could have reached earth in much less time. Such an approach is attractive — after all, it is impossible to prove today that fundamental physical constants have not changed over time.

A change in the speed of light of the necessary magnitude would have had profound implications on other physical processes, particularly the nuclear fusion reactions that power the Sun. Secondly measurements of the speed of light have revealed no noticeable change in the speed of light in the time we have been measuring it. Given that these measurements have been extremely accurate over a long period it seems unlikely to opponents of this theory that there were substantial changes in the last few thousand years. This cannot be conclusively proven.

Relativistic shifts
A more recent theory holds that, in a bounded universe, relativistic effects might cause time to pass more slowly near the centre of the universe that at its periphery. If the Earth were near the centre, then far-away stars might indeed be millions of years old, while the earth might be thousands of years old, even if created at the same time. Even the author of this theory will admit that it is no more than a theory at this time.

This theory also assumes the extremely problematic existence of an edge to the universe. Mainstream scientific theories regarding the topology of the universe do not consider a physical edge. Indeed, it is similar to the flat Earth hypothesis - a spherical Earth has no edge and yet remains bounded, whereas the thorny issue of an as-yet unreported edge to the Earth arises in the flat case.

Early civilisation
Many Young Earthers believe that dinosaurs and other creatures of their geological era existed contemporaneously with human beings. Mythologies of dragons and other creatures, such as the Leviathan in the Book of Job, bear a strong resemblance to dinosaurs and occur frequently in many parts of the world. (Indeed, the Chinese interpreted fossilised dinosaur bones as being "dragon bones".) Some have claimed that cave paintings depict animals that should have been extinct long before the paintings were executed.

Young Earth Creationists hold that human society progressed from the 'caveman' stage to city-building capability in only a few thousand years. Many Young Earthers argue that in Adam's day, humans lived longer (1000 years), had few disabilities and malfunctions, and were closer to God, and therefore lived more successfully. Since expulsion from Eden, they hold that humans have slowly declined as a consequence of genetic mutations and/or separation from God.

By contrast, conventional science maintains that dinosaurs died out long before human beings existed. Scientific methods of dating separate the last known dinosaurs and the first known humans by some 65 million years. The remains of humans and dinosaurs have never been found in the same fossil layers, indicating a lack of contemporaneity between the two. Genetic mutations are conventionally seen as benefiting species in the long term, allowing them to evolve to better fit their environment. Conventional archaeology has recorded in considerable detail a progression from a lengthy Stone Age to the relatively rapid development of technological civilisation over the last 9,000 years - a timescale which in itself contrasts many Young Earth views. Conventional archaeological and paleontological evidence does not show ancient humans having longer lifespans than today. The bulk of the evidence suggests that life expectancy was far shorter in the past, with the ancient Romans having an average life expectancy of 40 years or less.


Conventional science
Conventional science holds that the universe came into being 13.7 0.2 billion years ago, and the Earth formed around 4.57 billion years ago. The geologic timescale is based on many pieces of evidence, including radiometric dating, the fossil record, dendrochronology (tree rings), ice cores, sediment cores, and coral samples.

Young Earth Creationists hold that conventional science is incorrect, as it fails to take into account important evidence from Genesis and from divine revelations. They also point to alleged inconsistencies, errors, anomalous results, and unanswered questions created by conventional science as evidence that it is incorrect. The Institute for Creation Research(ICR)[http://www.icr.org] is the source of most evidence cited by Young Earth Creationists. The ICR searches for other interpretations to scientifically accepted data.

Conventional scientists regard some of these objections as resulting from misunderstanding of the relevant scientific evidence by creationists. Other objections they regard as merely indicating avenues for further scientific research, rather than insurmountable flaws requiring a paradigm shift.
 
Upvote 0

Iosias

Senior Contributor
Jul 18, 2004
8,171
227
✟9,648.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Day-Age Creationism is a type of Creationism that holds that the six days referred to in the Genesis account of creation are not ordinary 24-hour days, but rather are much longer periods (of thousands or millions of years). The Genesis account is then interpreted as an account of the process of cosmic evolution, providing a broad base on which any number of theories and interpretations are built.

This group notes that God is not bound by time and that the term "day" in Genesis is used before the creation of the sun or the moon; consequently, "day" does not refer to an Earthly day, because such a day does not yet exist. This abstract use of "day" is found in other mythological and religious writings of the middle east to denote the passage of cosmic benchmarks in addition to referring to earthly time marked by the sun or the moon.

Day-age creationism suggests that the very brief account of creation in Genesis was not intended as informative, but rather as a succinct summary of ancient knowledge in the Levant. Moreover, it implies that the Creation narrative is brief because it serves as an introduction linking the rise of the Judaic ethnos to the dawn of time. Thus, to ascribe any specific and definitive interpretation is beyond the scope and intent of the passages in Genesis and is by nature subjective and controversial. Moreover, to require that faith in God be contingent on any one interpretation of creation is to limit a believer's faith to earthly and not spiritual matters.

However, there are some major problems with day-age creationism, such as that God would have created plants an age before the sun, an impossiblity.

That said, Day-Age Creationism does include a number of specific and interesting theories and speculation regarding divine creation of the universe which is ultimately unknown to man. These ideas revolve around the use of the word "day" in contexts before the existence of the sun, moon, and earthly time in the book of Genesis.

No language is very rich in words significant of definite periods of time; but in the early Hebrew they seem to have been very scanty. The day, week, month, year, and generation (this last usually implying the time from the birth of a man to that of his son, but possibly in Gen. 15:16, a century) are all that we find. These in their literal sense were evidently inadequate. There was no word at all in early Hebrew equivalent to our words "period" and "season." When such an idea was to be expressed, it was done by the use of the word "day," either in the singular, or more commonly in the plural. Thus, "the time of harvest;" "the season of the first ripe fruit," are literally "the days of harvest," "the days of the first ripe fruit." In Isaiah 34:8, the singular is used, and followed by the word year in the same indefinite sense. "It is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." In the 14th and following verses, when Moses is describing the formation of the heavenly luminaries, he is particular in mentioning that one part of their office was to "rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness." Hence it is sometimes inferred that he was under a mistake in speaking of day and night at an earlier period. But such a mistake seems incredible. If then, under such circumstances, he uses the word "day" long before he comes to the formation of the sun, the natural inference is that he did so designedly — that it was his intention that his readers should understand that he was speaking of something very different from that natural day which is regulated by sunrise and sunset.

To explain this, some creationists who hold the view that the six day period in the Genesis account of creation refers to the time spent by light traveling from the center of the universe at the time and point of creation.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
A Creationist is someone who believes that a literal interprutation of Genesis and natural science are perfectly compatable. Now a YEC creationist believes that the earth was formed fairly recently and that geology is largely consistant with their views. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, for instance, some will tell you that the earth was formed 4.5 billion years ago but there is a gap in the timeline and the living creatures were fully formed 6,000 to 10,000 years ago. The theisitic evolutionist feels that a literal interprutation of Genesis is wrong and that God simply alluded to the naturalistic processes in the Genesis account. Theistic evolution is not discernably different then Darwinian evolution and claim that God used purely natural process to develop life on this planet.

Hope that helps,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

Treasure the Questions

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2004
1,174
69
64
✟1,704.00
Faith
Christian
Thanks for your replies. AV seems to have given a pretty comprehensive description. I can see most of these ideas aren't new to me: they just go by names I wasn't familiar with.

If anyone thinks there's another sort of "Creationist" that's not been mentioned please explain their views.
mark kennedy said:
Theistic evolution is not discernably different then Darwinian evolution and claim that God used purely natural process to develop life on this planet.
Mark, as you are not a Theistic Evolutionist (presumably) are you really in a position to say what they believe? For a start their beliefs probably differ slightly from person to person. As one myself I'd say that science is able to explain a lot of what God did, but not everything. I'm not sure of exactly what role evolution played in the process (i.e. to what extent it caused the diversity of life around us), but I do think it was part of it. As I'm married to a professional scientist I realise the limits of science. Some people may put more faith in science because they don't understand it's limitations. Perhaps as a linguistic I am less prepared to put my faith in sicence, too. ;) For me the bottom line is that God created everything.

Karin
 
  • Like
Reactions: herev
Upvote 0

ChristianCandy

Live Well, Laugh Often, and Love the Lord!
Jul 31, 2004
44,588
3,401
68
Canada
✟61,150.00
Faith
SDA
I personally believe in the 'gap' theory. An old earth & a young creation. There is evidence to support that the earth has been around billions of years, yet mankind is relatively young (6,000 yrs. or so).

However, scientists have found a different species of human bones not belonging to us (homo sapiens) and belonging to a different species of human dating back 15,000 yrs ago, which would support the theory there was another race of humans living on the earth who got all wiped out & God started creation again with Adam & Eve.

Also I have heard recently that scientists believe we have a young universe, only 13,000 to 15,000 yrs. old which supports the Bible in that God re-made creation on this planet for Adam & Eve.

Confused? Here read this link & you will understand better. It explains the 'gap' theory.

http://www.kjvbible.org/
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Treasure the Questions said:
Thanks for your replies. AV seems to have given a pretty comprehensive description. I can see most of these ideas aren't new to me: they just go by names I wasn't familiar with.

If anyone thinks there's another sort of "Creationist" that's not been mentioned please explain their views.
Mark, as you are not a Theistic Evolutionist (presumably) are you really in a position to say what they believe? For a start their beliefs probably differ slightly from person to person. As one myself I'd say that science is able to explain a lot of what God did, but not everything. I'm not sure of exactly what role evolution played in the process (i.e. to what extent it caused the diversity of life around us), but I do think it was part of it. As I'm married to a professional scientist I realise the limits of science. Some people may put more faith in science because they don't understand it's limitations. Perhaps as a linguistic I am less prepared to put my faith in sicence, too. ;) For me the bottom line is that God created everything.

Karin

First off, I am not really in a postition to speak for the theistic evolutionist I'm just explaining the differences as I understand them. However, I have known a number of theistic evolutionists and I think they would agree with what I said about them. Of course, they might have some reservations ;) . Personally I think science is a wonderfull tool but it is illequiped to understanding God except in the most general way.

By the way, I thought you might find this interesting. Darwin said that the course of evolution of species and development of language were identical. I don't have the exact quote with me at the moment but I can dig it out if you are interested. At any rate, I enjoyed the post and I hope you don't see faith and science as being at odds with one another. I know I never did.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.