Please answer this for me!

[AMONA]

Hello everyone. I am a Muslim who has been doing serious studies on Christianity over the past 3 months and i feel as if i am on that stage of turning to Christ.

I have been talking with a Chaplain on this site, as well as other pastors. I have spoken to them about my difficulties and various "thoughts" that are limiting me. they have done a great job at assisting.

However, I will not be talking with a Pastor again until next week and I really want to get this question out of my head to allow me to focus on more important thing!!!

Here is the question:

I have been told that the following proves the distortion of the concept of the Trinity.
Are they true?
1. 1 John 5:7
A. Used to say: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
B. Revised books say: ".........The Spirit, the water, and the blood"
2. Matthew 28:19
A. Says: "Baptize...In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
B: Claim: In the original Hebrew it said: "....In the name of Jeses"

How do we answer to those making such accusations?

 

[Mediaeval]

As I understand it, 1 John 5:7 appears in only a few manuscripts of late date and was rarely if ever mentioned by the early Church Fathers. They demonstrated the doctrine of the Trinity by referring to other verses of Scripture.

Like Mark, Luke, and John, the original text of Matthew is in Greek. An ancient Hebrew version of Matthew was mentioned by early church historian Eusebius but it is not extant. "...into (Greek, eis) the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" is a literal translation of 28:19. This does not conflict with baptism "on" (Greek, epi) the name of Jesus Christ mentioned in Acts 2:38. However, in baptismal contexts English Bibles usually render both Greek prepositions "in".

 

[paul1149]

Hi Amona. I'm so glad you're investigating the claims of Christ. I'm not an expert on the original texts, but maybe I can give you some perspective.

The "latency period" between the original writing and the earliest extant scriptures we have is extremely small, as ancient texts go. In some cases it's mere decades. And the texts we do have overwhelmingly agree with each other. The faithful transmission of the texts was taken extremely seriously, as Christians were being murdered for their faith for the first few hundred years under Rome. Down through the centuries the texts have also been scrutinized like no other book in history, including by opponents of the faith, because their claims of the texts are so powerful, and they have passed the test.

There are, however, some minor differences, such as the 1Jn 5 verse you point out, but nothing that affects major doctrine. Major doctrines do not hinge on any one verse. They are drawn from the full counsel of God as given in the Word (see Acts 20.26-27). The Trinity, for instance, is derived from Christ's divinity, which in turn is proven by His claims, His miraculous deeds, His authority to forgive sins, His acceptance of worship (whereas holy angels never do - see Revelation), etc, along with His obvious separate personhood from the Father. The Holy Spirit is referred to as having His own will, and is explicitly identified as "the Lord" in 2Cor 3.

The Great Commission verse reading you refer to I haven't heard of. As Mediaeval points out, the earliest texts we have of Matthew are in Greek, though the original may have been in the Aramaic dialect of Hebrew. But how would one today know what the Aramaic version said in that verse? If the alternate rendering did make it into some Greek texts, their frequency and reliability would have to be weighed against the other texts we have. I'm not aware of any translations that have preferred that rendering, though that's not definitive.

 

[Lukaris]

From the beginning the early fathers preached the Trinity & its relation to baptism. For ex. scripture Psalm 33:6, "By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and all their host by the breadth of his mouth" (New King James (NKJV) & Revised Standard Versions (RSV)). The "LORD" is recognized as the Father, the word as the Son, & the breadth as the Holy Spirit.

There is a preaching from St Irenaeus of Lyons (France) of the 2nd c. which was lost for centuries & not found until the early 20th c. from that states what I paraphrased above. In fact his rendering of the verse is, "By the Word of the Lord were the heavens established and all there power by His Spirit". Note the later translation mentions "breadth of his mouth" what the 2nd c. bishop directly calls "His Spirit" although both are correct.

St. Irenaues goes on to preach how the 3 persons of the 1 God created all & revealed Himself to us. From here he preaches, "For this reason the baptism of our regeneration takes place through these 3 articles, granting us regeneration unto God the Father through His Son by the Holy Spirit: for those who bear the Spirit of God are led to the Word, that is the Son, while the Son presents them to the Father, & the Father furnishes incorruptibility.....according to the good pleasure of the Father, the Son administers, to whom the Father wills and as He wills." (from: "On the Apostolic Preaching" of St. Ireanaues ca. 180 AD from p. 44 of a 1997 edition by St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, isbn # 978-0-88141-174-4)

St. Irenaeus was also preaching of the fulfillment of Psalm 33:6 as taught by St. Paul in Titus 3:5.

As you can see the apostles preached the baptism of the Holy Trinity to the early church from the scriptures. For ex. St. Paul, "For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father" (Ephesians 2:18, NKJV). "Him" is the Lord Jesus Christ & the rest is clear. In the old testament again we hear, "Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there." And now the LORD God has sent me and his Spirit." (Isaiah 48:16, RSV).

So clearly the Trinity is what we are baptized to although in the name of Jesus with proper understanding in the Spirit must be true also. May God bless & protect you.

 

[Sketcher]

I would say that the doctrine of the Trinity does not rely on the more developed versions of 1 John 5:7-8, and that there is no "original Hebrew" New Testament. The words of Christ would have been spoken in Hebrew or Aramaic, but the New Testament was written in Greek in order to reach the most people.