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Brightmoon

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If I have a choice to accept what a scientists says or what a church says . I’ll take the scientist but only because when scientists make claims, they have to back it up with evidence. Churches can say anything, call it a dogma that you just have to believe, and never budge from that stance. So if the bible claims something that turns out later to contradict natural phenomena. I’ll take natural phenomena the way it is and see the biblical claim as a story, allegory, fable or even a fabrication.
 
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BroRoyVa79

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Science says people can't resurrect from the dead nor can women give birth without having sex. Before you give me some sort of cultural explanation, Scripture also says it's pointless being a Christian if Jesus did not resurrect. Ressurection contradicts natural phenomena. You claim you'll take natural phenomena over it. Ressurection by your logic is allegory, a story, fable, or fiction.

In Paul's words, 1 Corinthians 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
 
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Brightmoon

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Those are dogmas ! Somethings you believe by faith. But that claim that women have to have sex to get pregnant. That not true, all they need is some viable sperm. I also guess you’ve never seen a medical drama where someone’s heart gets restarted. Those weren’t good examples but I did understand what you meant. I guess it never bothered me much that so many science facts contradict biblical teachings ! I also never minded being a plant’s cousin:)
 
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BroRoyVa79

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That's not dogma, that's foundational to being a Christian. If you don't believe Jesus is God and rose from the dead then your faith is questionable. If you don't believe Jesus was not the product of a human male's sperm, etc. and instead supernaturally placed in Mary's womb then your faith is questionable.

The resurrection of Christ goes against natural phenomena.
Virgin birth goes against natural phenomena.
Supernatural healing goes against natural phenomena.
Heck, God creating the universe goes against natural phenomena.

You said you favor natural phenomena over fables, allegories, stories, and/or fiction as seen in the Bible. There are plenty of supernatural events in scripture.
This leads me to wonder if you even believe in the existence of the Supernatural? God is supernatural? Is that just a dogmatic statement to you?

If God is real, and I thoroughly believe He is, then why is it so hard to believe He did things the way He said He did them in the beginning?

Evolution has many problems, but I won't bother listing them because I already suspect you and a lot here have heard many of them. You are right, you have a choice. That's really all it is, a choice. We both have the same evidence: biology, chemistry, cosmological, etc., but we come to different conclusions from different interpretations.

At the end of all this, it all really depends on your narrow opinion of what is natural. To me, the supernatural is natural. We limit natural to only what we see and experience with the five senses, yet scoff when witness testimony is given that they've experienced something outside what we narrowly limit to the "natural." But that's getting ahead of myself.

In any case, have a good day or night depending on wherever you are. I'm moving along now, really this time.
 
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AV1611VET

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Evolution does not go together well with what the Bible says.
I'll leave it at that.
I'm unimpressed with your claims that you hear their "pointless criticisms all the time." Your dismissive attitude makes me think otherwise.
Kinda like watching the movie, The Bible, then thinking you're now an expert on the Bible.
 
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Chinchilla

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Bible says x , science says y and that x is impossible . Evidence says y and that x is impossible. I accept y not x . (shrug)

k bye, g’night

Bible says Christ rose from dead , science says people don't rise from the dead and that it's impossible . Evidence says people don't rise from the dead . You accept what in this situation the evidence or the faith ?
 
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Brightmoon

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Science doesn’t deal with supernatural phenomena and you and brother Roy should know that as you’re both educated adults and this is something that you should have learned in middle school . The fact that you don’t seem to understand that , speaks volumes about the creationist interference with education you’ve been subjected to. As far as natural phenomena, I’ll take a mainstream scientific explanation for that EVERY time
 
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AV1611VET

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Science doesn’t deal with supernatural phenomena and you and brother Roy should know that as you’re both educated adults.
Science is myopic and reality is much larger than science accounts for, isn't it?
Brightmoon said:
As far as natural phenomena, I’ll take a mainstream scientific explanation for that every time
Ah.

You have a set of standards as well, don't you?
 
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Brightmoon

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Kinda like watching the movie, The Bible, then thinking you're now an expert on the Bible.
. More like watching a creationist pseudoscience movie and thinking you understand evolution or basic geology ;)
 
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Brightmoon

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Science isn’t that myopic about natural phenomena. Creationists just get natural phenomena wrong because they try to twist biblical stories into being accurate histories. The genre of accurate historical information wasn’t even known back then . They would exaggerate the victories and minimise or completely ignore defeats and setbacks. Rulers were gods themselves and to report badly about them was like blasphemy . Even things like natural catastrophes or unusual stellar events were sort of brushed aside. We know this because there is not a single report, in Christian countries, of the nova the produced the Crab Nebula in 1054 . That nova was visible during the day and was visible at night for months . It was ignored because, according to medieval theology, the heavens moved like clockwork and something unusual like that bright star couldn’t exist. We know it was visible because the Chinese had records of it. Modern day creationists do the same thing. They ignore nature when it doesn’t suit their fantasies
 
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BroRoyVa79

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Edited to add: Alerts brought me back...

Why do you even call yourself a Christian? You sound more like an undercover Agnostic or Atheist?

You have a large ignorance about Christians, no Creationists, and Intelligent Designers. The two are different. There are Atheist IDers, Agnostic IDers, Muslim IDers, Hindu IDers, etc. Creationists are Christians who fall into several varieties as well.

Perhaps you've listened to some and perhaps you haven't. I don't know. I don't sit with you every day and see who and what you listen to, but your accusations sound like something right out of an Agnostic or Atheist's mouth. Your views sound devoid of being properly informed of the above groups. Instead, you rail general and seemingly uninformed accusations at all them and lump them together as one.

Regardless of "accurate histories" the Bible has been acknowledged as a history book to some degree even by those who disbelieve in it. It accurately records events and gives a window into a culture far removed from us. Also, despite your claim that "accurate histories" were not a genre back then does not somehow mean it is all false. Edited to add: Especially the Supernatural events.

Edited to add: You speak about Christians picking and choosing what, etc. Yet, you turn around and do the exact same thing it seems? With science, with history, with ancient texts, etc.

Edited to add: Science is myopic and has been hijacked by naturalists who believe that the only what we can experience with our five senses is reality. That alone is fallacious because your five senses can tell you nothing about your mind, things like love and fear, etc.

Now you're conflating what Medieval Europeans felt was important to report in the sky with what was reported in the Bible? Dude, Chinese, Arabian, et al were just as religious and had sacred writings and still reported the Crab Nebula in 1054? I'm not following that argument you tacted on at the end of bringing up how the ancients viewed history? Besides, I easily went to Google, did a cursory search and found a Journal of Astronomical History and Heritage from June 2003, Vol. 6, No.1 that lists, at least three records found out of Christian Europe in 1054.

Here's a thought for you, the very fact they wrote it down or passed it on verbally meant it was important for them to share the information (events, places, things) that occurred in history whether they embellished or not. Don't act like our enlightened modern selves don't still embellish either.

Again, as I said, just because you went to college doesn't mean you know everything about a particular subject. I've gone to college for computers, art, multimedia, 3D, biblical studies, contemporary religion, and philosophy. I have both a BA and a Master in biblical studies, contemporary religion, and philosophy while having coursework in the other aforementioned categories. I do not presume to know every facet of philosophy, the Bible, and other religions just because I have two degrees in those areas.
 
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Brightmoon

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I’ve got a biology degree which means at a minimum, that I understand basic science . I also took a few geology classes because I was a bit of a rock hound as a kid . So I’ve got a good basic grounding in that as well. Unfortunately I’ve had to see creationists try to change the meanings of scientific definitions and make up terminology for DECADES. I’ve seen the scientific disinformation they've put out for DECADES . ( Disinformation is when the misinformation is done deliberately) I’ve long since gotten so disgusted with creationists lies and fabrications that I just don’t bother to read it anymore! With some of the nonsense that creationists posit, a middle schooler could tell them that they are wrong AND tell them why . Atheism has nothing to do with why I reject pseudoscience. It’s just dangerous nonsense
 
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BroRoyVa79

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I’ve got a biology degree which means at a minimum, that I understand basic science . I also took a few geology classes because I was a bit of a rock hound as a kid . So I’ve got a good basic grounding in that as well.

Still does not mean you know everything.

Unfortunately I’ve had to see creationists try to change the meanings of scientific definitions and make up terminology for DECADES. I’ve seen the scientific disinformation they've put out for DECADES . ( Disinformation is when the misinformation is done deliberately) I’ve long since gotten so disgusted with creationists lies and fabrications that I just don’t bother to read it anymore! With some of the nonsense that creationists posit, a middle schooler could tell them that they are wrong AND tell them why . Atheism has nothing to do with why I reject pseudoscience. It’s just dangerous nonsense

My experience is different. I have seen the other side manipulate information, keep known falsehoods in textbooks and even those in charge of certain things and part of certain organizations admit that lies in the textbooks are needed. They kept/keep stuff like Haeckel's embryo pictures knowing they are false. They staged photos of the peppered moths as one of their pillars, knowing it was false. They lie about what Creationists believe and trick people like you. They lie about stuff like Piltdown Man with eloquently drawn pictures when they only find things like a tooth or a small bone, etc. etc. Edited to add: These four examples are a very small list.

Then some like Bora Zivkovic say things like it's okay to use some inaccuracies temporarily to help reach the students, in other words, indoctrination. Even Stephen Jay Gould said it was okay to manipulate the truth. So, again, you place yourself on a high horse believing everything that comes out of the mouth of naturalists over believers and you say you believe the things Christians believe?

Call me unimpressed as you would put it.
 
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dreadnought

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. What do you think those lovely scents are:). They aren’t for you, they’re to call pollenators
That's the first I've heard of it, though Wikipedia apparently agrees with you.
 
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Brightmoon

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during the soviet era , the Russians rejected natural selection in favour of a pseudoscience belief called lysenkoism. Millions of the Russian people starved to death when they put this policy in place and ran their agricultural programs according to this pseudoscience. What you think is atheism is simply a rejection of pseudoscience based ignorance as the historical records have already shown us the danger of believing ideology over science facts.
 
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Brightmoon

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That's the first I've heard of it, though Wikipedia apparently agrees with you.
Wikipedia actually isn’t a bad source of accurate scientific information. The people who run it don’t let pseudoscience info stay in the real science sections . Because of that policy, conservapedia got started because they could post pseudoscience in their science info which Wikipedia didn’t allow
 
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BroRoyVa79

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S j Gould ! You’re joking right! He hated creationist pseudoscience explanations . And he doubly hated that they’d twist his words

Nope, Gould has been caught, even by some of his peers in dishonest rhetoric.
 
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Brightmoon

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First of your info about science facts are wrong . Nobody uses Haeckel’s embryo drawings . The pharyngula stage of fetal development is usually shown in photos .

Piltdown man was never scientifically described and was accidentally grandfathered in, in popular literature first. Other scientists carelessly assumed that it had been accurately described. We’ve long since admitted that we goofed with that one . But 50 years later creationists still act like it was important. It was never scientifically described and when more fossils were found, that’s when they realised that piltdown just didn’t fit.

The peppered moth photos were staged to show what the moths looked like against the relevant backgrounds . In other words, just to take the photos. The experiment wasn’t staged. In fact , at that time, Kettlewell’s manipulation of the experiment was accepted. What information you didn’t get was that those experiments were redone later by Ken Majerus without touching the moths . And he got the same results

If you’ve got that book by Jonathan Wells - Icons of Evolution . that book is full of trash and fabrications and that stuff is considered to be a PRATT but it keeps coming up:doh:
 
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