Actually we do; as has been pointed out there are three visually consistent from-life images, and what is more, the unifoed tradition of iconography.
You don't know that.That does mean we can create and or promote false images Him. For nobody knows what He looks like today.
What possible reason would the beekeeper have for putting bee repellant on the icons?Did anyone test the painting to see if the area the bees stayed away from had a trace of peppermint or other mild bee repellant?
Believe all you want. That doesn't erase the existence of Icons from Saint Luke of Christ and His mother, nor other First Century Icons discovered in first Century Churches.I believe you are wrong.
Especially on an image he is putting inside of his bee hive, which is a source of his livelihood. You're basically saying this guy was so interested in fabricating a miracle that he essentially endangered his income to make it happen. That's not exactly a rock solid theoryWhat possible reason would the beekeeper have for putting bee repellant on the icons?
I believe you are wrong.
Especially on an image he is putting inside of his bee hive, which is a source of his livelihood. You're basically saying this guy was so interested in fabricating a miracle that he essentially endangered his income to make it happen. That's not exactly a rock solid theory
You are skirting over the issue that this is not biblical. You can have bronze snakes, tombs, arks, tablets or whatever kind of religious objects you can pull out of the bible. Glorifing these things and calling them essential forms of the church has no biblical basis. It is very biblical themed but it is highly irresponsible to use "spiritual sounding" things and claim they essentials to faith and is mishandling the gospel. Icons may be about to gospel but the gospel is not about icons.Actually we do in fact have iconographic tombs which figure prominently in the Good Friday - Holy Saturday - Paschal liturgical cycle. We also have bronze snakes on our Bishops crosiers. I am not sure these could be regarded as essential as opposed to part of the local liturgical traditions of the East, but we do have these items in case anyone asks, so that has the amusing effect of unwittingly bypassing your first argument. Orthodox liturgical accessorizing is actually quite epic: in the different Eastern rites one will find spears for piercing the bread to be consecrated in the Eucharist, metal stars placed atop the carefully prepared bread, a variety of different types of veils and corporals, in the Syriac rite, liturgical slippers; there exist in Ethiopia replicas of the ark of the covenant and the ten commandments which function in place of the Antimension of the Byzantine Rite or the Tablitho of the West Syriac. There are various paraments that cover the antimension or tablitho.mmThe Ethiopians have liturgical umbrellas. Then, there exist a fairly vast assortment of materials for use on various liturgical occasions, some of which are perishable.
One could spend an infinite amount of time and money documenting the vast array of acoutrements which exist, which is a reason why the Islamic destruction of Christian churches in Syria and Iraq is so tragic; these are not cookie cutter institutions but rather, individual parishes might have distinct liturgical heritage, and the hardware to support that heritage.
However you are quite wrong to accuse the Orthodox of being theatrical. Actually a huge amount of the vast arraybof liturgical hardware I just alluded to is never really seen by the laity; for example, Coptic priests keep the instruments used for handling the Eucharist out of sight in a linen bundle on the altar table and are reticent to discuss its content. The Byzantine Rite Liturgy of Preparation occurs in silence, behind the iconostasis. These liturgies are not ritual magic, but they are important and extremely solemn forms of prayer. The majority of what a parishioner sees and hears on a given Sunday is invariant.
Now, on the point of tradition being Tradition because we say it is, this is of course correct because the Orthodox Church is the Apostolic Faith. It is by all practical definitions both foolproof and error-proof. Such objections as yours have been raised before, and they have always been due to human error.*
* I will readily admit to paraphrasing HAL 9000 with a certain relish.
Neither does the electronic icon of the pastor projected on the screen. Nor does the use of electronics in worship. So let's do this, once you remove EVERYTHING and EVERY practice that isn't directly in the Scripture, we shall consider removing ours.You are skirting over the issue that this is not biblical. You can have bronze snakes, tombs, arks, tablets or whatever kind of religious objects you can pull out of the bible. Glorifing these things and calling them essential forms of the church has no biblical basis. It is very biblical themed but it is highly irresponsible to use "spiritual sounding" things and claim they essentials to faith and is mishandling the gospel. Icons may be about to gospel but the gospel is not about icons.
You are skirting over the issue that this is not biblical. You can have bronze snakes, tombs, arks, tablets or whatever kind of religious objects you can pull out of the bible. Glorifing these things and calling them essential forms of the church has no biblical basis. It is very biblical themed but it is highly irresponsible to use "spiritual sounding" things and claim they essentials to faith and is mishandling the gospel. Icons may be about to gospel but the gospel is not about icons.
What possible reason would the beekeeper have for putting bee repellant on the icons?
Especially on an image he is putting inside of his bee hive, which is a source of his livelihood. You're basically saying this guy was so interested in fabricating a miracle that he essentially endangered his income to make it happen. That's not exactly a rock solid theory
To what end?Possibly to fake a miracle.
They are not false images just because you say they are. Since Scripture DOESN'T say they are false, they are true. Unless you can PROVE they are false, which requires that you be able to read minds and prove your ability to read minds. Is that clear?
To what end?
On the contrary, the Gospel is entirely about icons.
That attracts kisses from the Holy Father but will it repel bees?
That attracts kisses from the Holy Father but will it repel bees?
While there are symbols like the cross and the brass serpent that points us to Jesus and the gospel message, by themselves they are nothing.
For idolatry is condemned in the Bible and these symbols (such as the cross and the brass serpent) were not used later on by the apostles in the New Testament as statues or drawings, etc (as a part of their gospel message or in their worship).
1 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
...
"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven" (Matthew 23:9).
"...to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8:6).
....
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