Physics and the Immortality of the Soul

Norman321 · May 24, 2012

Anyone who has any experance at all with computers knows about memory and the problem of decay and corruption. The only solution seems to be to back up your data. Sean Carrol asks how can memory exists apart from basic physics of atoms and electrons?

"Claims that some form of consciousness persists after our bodies die and decay into their constituent atoms face one huge, insuperable obstacle: the laws of physics underlying everyday life are completely understood, and there’s no way within those laws to allow for the information stored in our brains to persist after we die. If you claim that some form of soul persists beyond death, what particles is that soul made of? What forces are holding it together? How does it interact with ordinary matter?" Sean Carrol (Phd Physics Harvard)

Just what is the tree of life or even the bread of life that will allow us to live forever. The disciples thought that perhaps after the resurrection Jesus was Spirit or pure energy. But that does not seem to be the case. He ate fish and honey, after the resurrection.

24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted *, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled ? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see;
for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb *.
24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Tinker Grey · May 24, 2012

Why would an omnipotent God need a tree or bread to endow you with eternal, undecaying, life?

This is a completely arbitrary construct.

Norman321 · May 24, 2012

Tinker Grey said:
Why would an omnipotent God need a tree or bread to endow you with eternal, undecaying, life?

What does omnipotent mean?

This is a completely arbitrary construct.

God does not have to tell us how He does anything. That is the difference between being a servant and a child of God.

Tinker Grey · May 24, 2012

Norman321 said:
What does omnipotent mean?

Seriously?

Well, just in case, it means "all powerful".

God does not have to tell us how He does anything. That is the difference between being a servant and a child of God.

Irrelevant. If God can do anything, then he can make it so that your memory doesn't fade nor any physical infirmities occur whatsoever.

As such, speculation about how is a waste of time. It just is. A being with essentially infinite power doesn't even need a mechanism let alone a tree that you would need to eat of to accomplish what is apparently God's will. And if God requires you to eat of the tree in order to accomplish his "will", then his requirement is completely arbitrary since he didn't have to do it that way. It would seem then that this eternal life wouldn't be the object of the tree, but rather the tree represents yet another obedience test.

Norman321 · May 24, 2012

Tinker Grey said:
If God can do anything.

Who said God can do "anything"? There are lots that God can not do. He can not lie, cheat or steal for example. It is not in His nature. Although the Devil does seem to be the exact opposite. All he does is lie, cheat and steal. He is the father of that.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

Guy1 · May 24, 2012

Norman321 said:
Who said God can do "anything"? There are lots that God can not do. He can not lie, cheat or steal for example.

Well cheat and steal maybe. He lied to Adam and Eve, telling them they'd die the day they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Which in itself is another can of worms), then Abraham by telling him to sacrifice his only son (Don't gimme this "IT WAS A TEST" because it required lying).

Cheating ... I'll give you that one. You can't really cheat when the players all agree that you make the rules (But when they don't on the other hand...).

You got me on stealing.

Norman321 said:
It is not in His nature.

I beg to differ.

Tinker Grey · May 24, 2012

Norman321 said:
Who said God can do "anything"? There are lots that God can not do. He can not lie, cheat or steal for example. It is not in His nature. Although the Devil does seem to be the exact opposite. All he does is lie, cheat and steal. He is the father of that.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

Is there something in God's character that requires a Tree of Life? If not, it is arbitrary.

Norman321 · May 24, 2012

Tinker Grey said:
Is there something in God's character that requires a Tree of Life? If not, it is arbitrary.

Actually this was a discussion about Physics. Carrol's (phd physics harvard) question is: "If you claim that some form of soul persists beyond death, what particles is that soul made of? What forces are holding it together? How does it interact with ordinary matter?

We talked about the resurrection power of God where Jesus was raised from the dead. The disciples thought that Jesus was pure spirit or pure energy. Yet Jesus said: "Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." Then He went on to eat fish. This all took place AFTER the resurrection.

Carrol's arguement is that pure energy can not store memory. Yet Jesus did not claim to be pure energy. He said He had flesh and bones. In fact Paul talks about this when he says:

35But someone may ask, How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come? 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

Tinker Grey · May 24, 2012

Norman321 said:
Anyone who has any experance at all with computers knows about memory and the problem of decay and corruption. The only solution seems to be to back up your data. Sean Carrol asks how can memory exists apart from basic physics of atoms and electrons?

"Claims that some form of consciousness persists after our bodies die and decay into their constituent atoms face one huge, insuperable obstacle: the laws of physics underlying everyday life are completely understood, and theres no way within those laws to allow for the information stored in our brains to persist after we die. If you claim that some form of soul persists beyond death, what particles is that soul made of? What forces are holding it together? How does it interact with ordinary matter?" Sean Carrol (Phd Physics Harvard)

Just what is the tree of life or even the bread of life that will allow us to live forever. The disciples thought that perhaps after the resurrection Jesus was Spirit or pure energy. But that does not seem to be the case. He ate fish and honey, after the resurrection.

24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted *, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled ? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see;
for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb *.
24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

{Emphasis Added}

Norman321 said:
Actually this was a discussion about Physics. Carrol's (phd physics harvard) question is: "If you claim that some form of soul persists beyond death, what particles is that soul made of? What forces are holding it together? How does it interact with ordinary matter?

We talked about the resurrection power of God where Jesus was raised from the dead. The disciples thought that Jesus was pure spirit or pure energy. Yet Jesus said: "Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." Then He went on to eat fish. This all took place AFTER the resurrection.

Carrol's arguement is that pure energy can not store memory. Yet Jesus did not claim to be pure energy. He said He had flesh and bones. In fact Paul talks about this when he says:

35But someone may ask, How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come? 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

And yet it was you who raised the question as to the Tree of Life from which I infer you think it has to do with how we might be sustained eternally. If not, what did you mean by "that will allow us to live forever"? Why did you bring it up?

CaliforniaSun · May 24, 2012

So what physical proof do you have for a soul?

Until you provide some evidence for a soul and a mechanism for it surviving death, I'll stick with the smart physics guys and gals.

Norman321 · May 24, 2012

Tinker Grey said:
And yet it was you who raised the question as to the Tree of Life from which I infer you think it has to do with how we might be sustained eternally. If not, what did you mean by "that will allow us to live forever"? Why did you bring it up?

Yes, ok, right, I will try to "focus". According to Carrol: "Claims that some form of consciousness persists after our bodies die and decay". THIS is where Carrol goes wrong, because according to the Bible we have "freedom from death and decay." This reminds me of a question they asked in the 1700's:

"How is it possible that these bodies should be raised again, and joined to their several souls, which many thousands of years ago were either buried in the earth, or swallowed up in the sea, or devoured by fire? -- which have mouldered into the finest dust, --that dust scattered over the face of the earth, dispersed as far as the heavens are wide; -- nay, which has undergone ten thousand changes, has fattened the earth, become the food of other creatures, and these again the food of other men? How is it possible that all these little parts, which made up the body of Abraham, should be again ranged together, and, unmixed with the dust of other bodies, be all placed in the same order and posture that they were before, so as to make up the very self-same body which his soul at his death forsook?"

This Sermon was originally written by Benjamin Calamy, D.D., Vicar of St. Lawrence, Jewry, London. It occurs, p. 275, in a volume of Sermons which bears his name, published in 1704; and is here abridged and revised by Mr. Wesley.

Shall we go on? Or is this not scientific enough for you?

Norman321 · May 24, 2012

CaliforniaSun said:
So what physical proof do you have for a soul?

That is not really the issue here, because the question has to do with consciousness and memory. Maybe we could just consider the soul to be personality or individuality. Even animals have a personality or a soul. It is the Spirit that makes modern man different from the animals.

Guy1 · May 24, 2012

Norman321 said:
Yes, ok, right, I will try to "focus". According to Carrol: "Claims that some form of consciousness persists after our bodies die and decay". THIS is where Carrol goes wrong, because according to the Bible we have "freedom from death and decay." This reminds me of a question they asked in the 1700's:

"How is it possible that these bodies should be raised again, and joined to their several souls, which many thousands of years ago were either buried in the earth, or swallowed up in the sea, or devoured by fire? -- which have mouldered into the finest dust, --that dust scattered over the face of the earth, dispersed as far as the heavens are wide; -- nay, which has undergone ten thousand changes, has fattened the earth, become the food of other creatures, and these again the food of other men? How is it possible that all these little parts, which made up the body of Abraham, should be again ranged together, and, unmixed with the dust of other bodies, be all placed in the same order and posture that they were before, so as to make up the very self-same body which his soul at his death forsook?"

This Sermon was originally written by Benjamin Calamy, D.D., Vicar of St. Lawrence, Jewry, London. It occurs, p. 275, in a volume of Sermons which bears his name, published in 1704; and is here abridged and revised by Mr. Wesley.

Shall we go on? Or is this not scientific enough for you?

How is quoting a sermon scientific to begin with?

Norman321 said:
That is not really the issue here, because the question has to do with consciousness and memory. Maybe we could just consider the soul to be personality or individuality. Even animals have a personality or a soul. It is the Spirit that makes modern man different from the animals.

Yes- replacing one vaguely defined term with another will solve all your problems.

Norman321 · May 24, 2012

Guy1 said:
How is quoting a sermon scientific to begin with?

Wow you do not want to know the answer to the question? Ok I suppose for people who do not believe in the resurrection of the dead, the answer would not make any difference. Wesley's sermon is just an interesting discussion on matter. While matter may not matter to you. For someone interested in physics it does matter to them. The discussion is about the M part in Einsteins equation of E=mc2. That is what we are talking about here.

Carrol asks how can memory or consciousness exist apart from the M part of Einsteins E=MC2. The answer from Wesley seems to be that it does not. Because of what we call the resurrection power of God. The Hindu or Buddist would call this in English: Chi. There is healing power in Chi, but when that happens science explains it away with the spontaneous remission or spontaneous recovery theory.

So again the answer to Carrol's question: "What forces are holding it together?". The answer to that would be what some people call Chi and what Wesley would refer to as the Resurrection Power of God.

Norman321 · May 24, 2012

Guy1 said:
Yes- replacing one vaguely defined term with another will solve all your problems.

Science does not have a problem with soul. The problem is you want to pick and choose. You reject a PHd if the Phd is in Psychology. You reject someone with a doctor in divinity because you do not like divinity. It was his Discourse about a doubting / scrupulous conscience that got him appointed to his best job. Perhaps this would be of more interest to you then a discussion on the resurrection.

Guy1 · May 24, 2012

Norman321 said:
Insert massive non-sequitur.

Gotcha, Goddidit.

Norman321 said:
Science does not have a problem with soul.

We agree!

Norman321 said:
The problem is you want to pick and choose.

It was good while it lasted.

Norman321 said:
You reject a PHd if the Phd is in Psychology.

Oh no I'm sure they know what they're talking about when it comes to psychology.

Norman321 said:
You reject someone with a doctor in divinity because you do not like divinity.

I'm actually more likely to listen to him than I am to you. I'm an elitist if you can't tell.

Norman321 said:
It was his Discourse about a doubting / scrupulous conscience that got him appointed to his best job. Perhaps this would be of more interest to you then a discussion on the resurrection.

That's nice, and no I'm not interested in talking about events that can't happen.

Lion Hearted Man · May 25, 2012

Isn't it obvious that memories are stored in neurons, which are physical? Surely we've all seen an Alzheimer's patient...

selfinflikted · May 25, 2012

Lion Hearted Man said:
Isn't it obvious that memories are stored in neurons, which are physical? Surely we've all seen an Alzheimer's patient...

Don't you dare come in here with your logic, reasoning, and facts!

CaliforniaSun · May 25, 2012

Norman321 said:
That is not really the issue here, because the question has to do with consciousness and memory. Maybe we could just consider the soul to be personality or individuality. Even animals have a personality or a soul. It is the Spirit that makes modern man different from the animals.

Maybe, after six thousand years, you'd have a concise definition of soul.

Greg1234 · May 25, 2012

CaliforniaSun said:
I'll stick with the smart physics guys and gals.

It's funny how in all their wisdom they have no control over the course of things. And whether a man hides in a BMW, a 747, or puts his head under a coffee machine, his "luck" is neither improved nor diminished one iota. What has to happen still happens, what is deflected recurs, and what is engineered is used to demonstrate the same will of God in the lives of men.

Physics and the Immortality of the Soul

Member

Wanderer

Member

Wanderer

Member

Senior Member

Wanderer

Member

Wanderer

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Senior Member

Member

Member

Senior Member

Eternal Newbie

Under Deck

Well-Known Member

In the beginning was El

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency