Physicality

[Mikeb85]

Thought this might be an interesting topic, as it's a huge chasm between traditional (and Orthodox) Christian belief and more modern beliefs.

Orthodox Christians (and Catholics and Anglicans) historically have adorned their churches with icons (and occasionally statues), have kept relics, and believe in the laying of hands to ordain Bishops. We also believe that Christ was 100% human (as well as being of one essence with the Father and Holy Spirit).

To traditional Christians, God's power is transmitted through matter, just as Christ became matter (ie. man). Another example in the OT is the Ark of the Covenant, among others...

Yet it seems to me as though most non-Orthodox (and RC and Anglican) Christians have a very different view of the physical world and Christianity in general, seeing God, faith, belief, etc..., as being non-physical, and rejecting any physical actions as being connected to faith.

So just curious, but what does everyone believe about the role of physical matter in God's plan and in Christian belief?

 

[Tangible]

Have you ever read about the Lutheran view? Especially on the Sacraments and the Doctrine of Vocation? Lutheran theology is very earthy, physical, gritty theology. All about a real God and real people living in a real world.

And we like sacred art too.

 

[Mikeb85]

Have you ever read about the Lutheran view? Especially on the Sacraments and the Doctrine of Vocation? Lutheran theology is very earthy, physical, gritty theology. All about a real God and real people living in a real world.

And we like sacred art too.

Nope, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were closer to the Orthodox/RC/Anglican view than the other way...

 

[Tiredknight]

Any church that adorns their buildings with Icons and statues is not an Orthodox church and practicing Idolatry.

God specifically said that we are not to make any graven Image of... ANYTHING.

Since this also was a Moral Law, IE 10 Commandments, and not Ceremony Law, IE Levitical Law. It still applies and thus statues or icons are graven Images and idols.

 

[Mikeb85]

Any church that adorns their buildings with Icons and statues is not an Orthodox church and practicing Idolatry.

God specifically said that we are not to make any graven Image of... ANYTHING.

Since this also was a Moral Law, IE 10 Commandments, and not Ceremony Law, IE Levitical Law. It still applies and thus statues or icons are graven Images and idols.

And what of all the images in the temple of Solomon?

 

[Tiredknight]

And what of all the images in the temple of Solomon?

There are none. If you are referring to the Cherubs near the mercy Seat God told them to build them, so they can not be graven images. God would ever command us to do something against his law.

 

[Tangible]

Any church that adorns their buildings with Icons and statues is not an Orthodox church and practicing Idolatry.

God specifically said that we are not to make any graven Image of... ANYTHING.

Since this also was a Moral Law, IE 10 Commandments, and not Ceremony Law, IE Levitical Law. It still applies and thus statues or icons are graven Images and idols.

God created an image of himself. All of creation symbolizes aspects and characteristics of its creator. Jesus Christ is a most perfect image of God.

The first commandment is about not having other gods, not about images in art.

 

[Tiredknight]

God created an image of himself. All of creation symbolizes aspects and characteristics of its creator. Jesus Christ is a most perfect image of God.

The first commandment is about not having other gods, not about images in art.

God told us not to make Graven Images, never said anything about his self. Do not tie God's law towards us, to him, when he never tied it to himself in the first place.

 

[Fireinfolding]

God even commanded the brasen serpent to be made by the hands of Moses, and the people were told they should behold it but they started censing it, and Hezekiah then destroyed it. There are some who believe the brasen serpent was an icon because God himself commanded it be made, with specific instructions (to behold it) not to kiss it or cense it. Then where we do see it was being censed it was destroyed, and Hezekiah is commended for doing what was right in so doing that too.

 

[Mikeb85]

There are none. If you are referring to the Cherubs near the mercy Seat God told them to build them, so they can not be graven images. God would ever command us to do something against his law.

So a physical image isn't always a 'graven image'. Let's hear your definition of what a graven image actually is?

In Orthodox theology, we depict Christ because He was a physical being, thus depict-able. The physical image of Him is affirmation He was a physical being. Beings such as angels and cherubs are depicted as affirmation that they have appeared as messengers to people.

 

[ChetSinger]

Some Protestant churches can be real sloppy with physicality. For example, if you ask some members if Jesus rose as a spirit you may hear a "yes", and when you ask "then why was his tomb empty", the gears start turning: "oh yeah...".

That thinking may extend to their own resurrection, imagining that they'll actually spend eternity in the clouds, wearing wings.

I've heard N.T. Wright blaming it on Greek-like thinking in the church.

 

[Tangible]

God told us not to make Graven Images, never said anything about his self. Do not tie God's law towards us, to him, when he never tied it to himself in the first place.

So God's holy and perfect Law does not apply to himself? It applied to Jesus Christ, did it not? Can the Father not remain true to his character and remain God?

God commanded us not go make graven images in conjunction with his command not to have any other gods. We are not to make objects and then worship them. Is this really so hard to grasp?

All of God's commandments have both negative and positive aspects. We are not to commit adultery and we are to lead sexually chaste and faithful lives. Likewise, we are not to create images to worship, but to use our God-given creative talents, proceeding from faith in Christ, to worship and bring glory to the true God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Tiredknight]

God even commanded the brasen serpent to be made by the hands of Moses, and they people were told they should behold it but they started censing it, and Hezekiah then destroyed it. There are some who believe the brasen serpent was an icon because God himself commanded it be made, with specific instructions (to behold it) not to kiss it or cense it. Then where we see it was being censed it was destroyed, and Hezekiah is commended for doing what was right in so doing that too.

That is because the Serpent had become an idol when it was not supposed to be.

There is also a lot of debate between scholars as to what this Nehushtan was. Whether it was the actual item that Moses built or not. No where in scripture does anyone ever refer to this item until this point.

The reason I feel more in tune with this idea and explanation is that no other king or prophet had a problem or mention of this this Nehushtan. Then Suddenly Hezekiah shows up and bam! destroys an idol in God's temple? it was most likely not the same item.

 

[ananda]

Thought this might be an interesting topic, as it's a huge chasm between traditional (and Orthodox) Christian belief and more modern beliefs ... what does everyone believe about the role of physical matter in God's plan and in Christian belief?

I believe that all of the physical world - the written Word, the moedim, marriage, children, planting crops, the cycle of birth & death, the orbits of the planets or atomic particles, the seasons, time and space, etc. - are all designed in some way to point men and women to YHWH and His Son, and Their Way of Salvation.

When we observe the commandments given to man found in His Torah, we are participating in this grand order, in the same way that the planets, by their observation of His Torah given to them (e.g. in staying along their paths, etc.) are also participating in His grand order of things. Sin is thus not only merely breaking His commandments, it is deviating from YHWH's desired path for us and our intended role to point others to Him.

 

[Tangible]

I believe that all of the physical world - the written Word, the moedim, marriage, children, planting crops, the cycle of birth & death, the orbits of the planets or atomic particles, the seasons, time and space, etc. - are all designed in some way to point men and women to YHWH and His Son, and Their Way of Salvation.

When we observe the commandments given to man found in His Torah, we are participating in this grand order, in the same way that the planets, by their observation of His Torah (e.g. in staying along their paths, etc.) are also participating in His grand order of things.

I believe that all of the physical world - the written Word, the ayaad, marriage, children, planting crops, the cycle of birth & death, the orbits of the planets or atomic particles, the seasons, time and space, etc. - are all designed in some way to point men and women to ALLAH and His Prophet PBUH, and Their Way of Salvation.

When we observe the commandments given to man found in His Qur'an, we are participating in this grand order, in the same way that the planets, by their observation of His Will (e.g. in staying along their paths, etc.) are also participating in His grand order of things.

See what I did there? With a few minor substitutions your statement was transformed into a confession any good Muslim would be proud to make. What are the ramifications?

 

[ananda]

See what I did there?

The physical order of things does not point to Islam.

 

[Tangible]

The physical order of things does not point to Islam.

Any Muslim would beg to differ.

 

[ananda]

Any Muslim would beg to differ.

They can beg all they want, but it doesn't change the facts.

The physical order of the universe shows an interconnected dependance to facilitate life, not death. Life is sustained and promoted by the harmonious workings of all of the universe, from the laws of gravity to the orbits of the planets, to the distances of the earth from the sun and the moon, to the orbits of the atomic particles, to the cycle of life and growth, and so on. This interdependence models "love" - caring for the welfare and functioning of others through action. Islam & their prophet models dominance over love and cooperation, and thus demonstrates otherwise.

 

[Tangible]

Islam is the universal order, the integral religion of harmony, and the unique system that harmonizes the physical with the metaphysical, the rational with the ideal, and the corporeal with the spiritual. Each dimension of our earthly life has its own place within Islam’s matrix and thus can perform its own function, enable us to be at peace with ourselves and our community and nature, and to gain happiness in both worlds.

Islam’s view of nature

Also, see Islam: Faith, Practice & History

The heart, the very essence of Islam is submission and obedience to the will of Allah. The natural world is held up in evidence that all nature exists in submission to his will. When man is not in submission to the will of Allah, he is therefore not only sinful but unnatural.

Christianity, on the other hand, sees he natural man as fallen, along with the entire universe, and naturally out of step with God's perfect will.

 

[Albion]

Thought this might be an interesting topic, as it's a huge chasm between traditional (and Orthodox) Christian belief and more modern beliefs.

Orthodox Christians (and Catholics and Anglicans) historically have adorned their churches with icons (and occasionally statues), have kept relics, and believe in the laying of hands to ordain Bishops. We also believe that Christ was 100% human (as well as being of one essence with the Father and Holy Spirit).

To traditional Christians, God's power is transmitted through matter, just as Christ became matter (ie. man). Another example in the OT is the Ark of the Covenant, among others...

Yet it seems to me as though most non-Orthodox (and RC and Anglican) Christians have a very different view of the physical world and Christianity in general, seeing God, faith, belief, etc..., as being non-physical, and rejecting any physical actions as being connected to faith.

So just curious, but what does everyone believe about the role of physical matter in God's plan and in Christian belief?

It's a fair question, but I think reality is somewhat mixed. While what you say seems correct as far as some Pentecostals, for example, go, it's also true that the Orthodox get into those weeds with talk of Theosis and Jesus being a 'divine human' (which I just read on some forum), etc. In other words, I think we could simultaneously make a case "for" and "against" in both cases. It would just be true with regard to different areas of each one's beliefs and practices.