Philosophy is futile

innodonni

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I give these reasons for believing Philosophy to be futile:

For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
[1 Corinthians 1:19 (Isaiah 29:14)]

When I applied my mind to know wisdom and to observe man's labor on earth-his eyes not seeing sleep day or night- then I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all his efforts to search it out, man cannot discover its meaning. Even if a wise man claims he knows, he cannot really comprehend it.
[Ecclesiastes 8:16-17]

Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
[Ecclesiastes 12:12]

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
[Proverbs 3:5]

I've even begun an essay to prove my point. Maybe I'll post it here when it's finished.
 

Ananel

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innodonni said:
I give these reasons for believing Philosophy to be futile:

For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
[1 Corinthians 1:19 (Isaiah 29:14)]

When I applied my mind to know wisdom and to observe man's labor on earth-his eyes not seeing sleep day or night- then I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all his efforts to search it out, man cannot discover its meaning. Even if a wise man claims he knows, he cannot really comprehend it.
[Ecclesiastes 8:16-17]

Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
[Ecclesiastes 12:12]

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
[Proverbs 3:5]

I've even begun an essay to prove my point. Maybe I'll post it here when it's finished.
I believe that what is spoken of in Scripture is not so much philosophy as the sole reliance upon the teachings of man and vainglorious philosophy. The source of all wisdom is God, but we are not to merely read like impotent children, incapable of thought of our own. Philosophy is best when it bears perspective and takes everything back to God in prayer.
Proverbs 2:1-5 said:
1 My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
2 turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding,
3 and if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,
4 and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,

5 then you will understand the fear of the LORD
and find the knowledge of God.
We are to search always and pray for understanding, growing in our wisdom and comprehension, viewing insight and understanding as priceless treasures.
Proverbs 15:14 said:
14 The discerning heart seeks knowledge,
but the mouth of a fool feeds on folly.
2 Peter 1 said:
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
So, we are to seek knowledge, and to not let our minds be stagnant.

To take your own passages:
1 Corinthians 18-25 said:
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[3]
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
Is the passage not speaking of the matter of salvation and how the wisdom of men, the philosophies of the age stood against the idea of such a salvation, a man hanging upon a Cross? What then does it say to those philosophies that do not oppose Christ Crucified, but instead hold Scripture in esteem and utilize the god-given gift of their minds? And what of Isaiah, which this quotes?
Isaiah 29:13-16 said:
"These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me
is made up only of rules taught by men.
14 Therefore once more I will astound these people
with wonder upon wonder;
the wisdom of the wise will perish,
the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."
15 Woe to those who go to great depths
to hide their plans from the LORD ,
who do their work in darkness and think,
"Who sees us? Who will know?"
16 You turn things upside down,
as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,
"He did not make me"?
Can the pot say of the potter,
"He knows nothing"?
Again, is not this preaching against the wisdom of men that counters God's word and stands upon false laws created by men to make them seem righteous?

To Ephesians 8, I say this: Who could not agree. Anyone who would claim to know with certainty, outside of the revelation of something beyond human capacity to comprehend is a fool. Human understanding will always be imperfect. Ever since Descartes, and in many cases long before, the wisest of philosophers always acknowledged the limitations of their own theories.

Ephesians 12:9-14 said:
9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but also he imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs. 10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.
11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails-given by one Shepherd. 12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them.
Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.

13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
Ok, I'll try to remember to get some sleep at night so I don't study my brains out. Sensible wisdom amidst the whole is just that. This is not a condemnation of writing or learning, but a warning not to go overboard, because it isn't healthy. It is followed by the wisdom of God.

To Proverbs 3, I say this: Of course. The fool leans upon his own wisdom solely. Human wisdom, as I've already said, is imperfect. However, this does not mean the man shall not think for himself, and shall never read not but the word of God. Simply always recall 1 John 4, and take what you see back to the Gospel of Christ, knowing that by this you may discern error and truth.

Philosophy is not wrong. Vainglorious, pompous philosophy without proper perspective is wrong. That which counters the wisdom of God is true folly, but there is much man has said that does not counter this and much that does. Which shall I take? That which does NOT counter God, but I shall enjoy the gift God has given me in great thinkers acceptable to His Word.
 
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Drifster

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innodonni said:
I give these reasons for believing Philosophy to be futile:

For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
[1 Corinthians 1:19 (Isaiah 29:14)]

When I applied my mind to know wisdom and to observe man's labor on earth-his eyes not seeing sleep day or night- then I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all his efforts to search it out, man cannot discover its meaning. Even if a wise man claims he knows, he cannot really comprehend it.
[Ecclesiastes 8:16-17]

Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
[Ecclesiastes 12:12]

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
[Proverbs 3:5]

I've even begun an essay to prove my point. Maybe I'll post it here when it's finished.
Proverbs 3:13
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 11:12
He that is void of wisdom despiseth his neighbour: but a man of understanding holdeth his peace.

Ecclesiastes 7:12
Wisdom or money can get you almost anything, but it's important to know that only wisdom can save your life.

Proverbs 17:24
Sensible people keep their eyes glued on wisdom, but a fool's eyes wander to the ends of the earth.
 
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kedaman

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Induction is probably not the best tool to understand the bible, since induction gives us contingent truths. Without analysis there is no distinction between right and wrong, and without deduction our faith cannot be put in practice. Without works faith is dead. Logic is necessary for purification, to not in the same breath say "yes, yes" and "no, no".

Wisdom and meaning is not its representation, but without its image, that is us and our ideas, it has no extent to reach out to or fullfill in this world.
 
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Qingu

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kedaman said:
Induction is probably not the best tool to understand the bible, since induction gives us contingent truths.
You use induction when you read the Bible. You read a translation; the translation process, from one language to another, uses induction. Even if you read the original manuscript, you had to learn the original language -- that also takes induction.

I am unaware of any non-contigent truths ... including your interpretation of the Bible.
 
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Drifster

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kedaman said:
Induction is probably not the best tool to understand the bible, since induction gives us contingent truths. Without analysis there is no distinction between right and wrong, and without deduction our faith cannot be put in practice. Without works faith is dead. Logic is necessary for purification, to not in the same breath say "yes, yes" and "no, no".

Wisdom and meaning is not its representation, but without its image, that is us and our ideas, it has no extent to reach out to or fullfill in this world.
Well said...welcome to CF btw. :)
 
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kedaman

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Hello and thanks Drifster :)

Qingu,

When you translate from one language to another then meaning is bound to be lost. However even the scripture is a representation and thus the object of interpretation and reinterpretation is not the scripture, but the Word of God. Reading the scripture doesn't necessarily mean recieving the Word of God, which requires a transformation in you, not mere interpretation. What I'm trying to say is that if you have not recieved the Word of God then you will be likely to reinterpret the scripture and lose objectivity in translation, but if you have the Word of God then you will concieve the necessary truth which is behind it, and that is important when translating between languages, in any matter, for without objectivity meaning is lost.

I am unaware of any non-contigent truths

Is this also non-contingent? ;)
 
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Qingu

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kedaman said:
Hello and thanks Drifster :)

Qingu,

When you translate from one language to another then meaning is bound to be lost. However even the scripture is a representation and thus the object of interpretation and reinterpretation is not the scripture, but the Word of God. Reading the scripture doesn't necessarily mean recieving the Word of God, which requires a transformation in you, not mere interpretation. What I'm trying to say is that if you have not recieved the Word of God then you will be likely to reinterpret the scripture and lose objectivity in translation, but if you have the Word of God then you will concieve the necessary truth which is behind it, and that is important when translating between languages, in any matter, for without objectivity meaning is lost.
"Word of God"
"Transformation"
You are getting these ideas from the Bible, which you depend on induction to read. Your argument is circular.

I am unaware of any non-contigent truths

Is this also non-contingent? ;)
Of course it is. It's contingent on logic being true, among several other presuppositions.
 
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innodonni said:
I give these reasons for believing Philosophy to be futile:

I've even begun an essay to prove my point. Maybe I'll post it here when it's finished.
Great, since the Bible quotes you've posted are hardly reasons, except perhaps for already believing Christians.
 
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kedaman

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"Objectivity"

Does this idea make sense to you? This idea came from my own head and so did the other two, the scripture contains just reinterpretation of those ideas. The meaning of the object of the scripture is a priori, the Word of God is a priori knowledge.

I have not come here to prove or disprove you anything, nor can I make you accept what is objectively true, that is a judgement you do for yourself.
 
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Qingu

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kedaman said:
"Objectivity"

Does this idea make sense to you? This idea came from my own head and so did the other two, the scripture contains just reinterpretation of those ideas. The meaning of the object of the scripture is a priori, the Word of God is a priori knowledge.
The Word of God is a priori knowledge, eh? Care to list the descendents of Adam without looking at your Bible? I think you are lying to yourself.
 
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ChitChatChick

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Hmmm, I suppose I see why some believe philosophy would get in the way of religious faith, but if you think of philosophy and religion in their most basic forms, they're the same thing. Both attempt to answer the questions of why we are here, and where we come from, and what our main purpose in life is. However in order for religion to function the masses must have faith in its doctrine (be it right or wrong, who knows for certain) whereas Philosophy attempts to answer those questions using human reason. Most people like to have a sense of security that they know what their lot in life is and what will happen when they die. But those who choose the philosophical path, in my opinion, are very brave. They look outside of what society or religion tell them and look within. They realize that they know that they do not know. And to me, that makes them very wise. Or at least humble enought to admit their limit of absolute knowledge. I also have a respect for those who can surrender their human reason into the "other", it must take a lot of strength. However, i worry that when man stops thinking, he stops feeling. That is how Hitler was able to do his damage. The people never questioned. Doubt first I always say.
 
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innodonni

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Philosophy in many respects tries to use the faculties of the pitifully small human brain to define, comprehend and explain aspects of life. This is bound to failure.

Truth. Philosophy, Science, Theology and Religion are all after the truth, and since science only labels things and philosophy negates itself, all is left is theology and religion.
It is evident from life, and it says in the Bible to not lean on one's own understanding, but to fully rely on God. If you have ever (which is almost 100% likely) been on your own, and you've not trusted God to help you through, but tried to manage on your own, you will know that it is futile.
The Christian religion is belief, or more relevantly, trusting in God that he exists, tells the truth and loves us. There is no other way.
Non-christians must have a really hard time, since they try to get along under their own steam. I find that happening to me more often than not, and that's when I feel absolutely terrible, like I cannot continue, and want to resume the foetal position and die.
Philosophy has proven it's own worthlessness. Has anyone ever made any breakthroughs in it? NO.

I apologise if I sound angry, but I really hate it when I feel unable to make my point clear. Language really is terribly over-rated.
 
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innodonni said:
Philosophy in many respects tries to use the faculties of the pitifully small human brain to define, comprehend and explain aspects of life. This is bound to failure.
Actually, just knowledge. Of course, you still might be right about the failure part.
Truth. Philosophy, Science, Theology and Religion are all after the truth, and since science only labels things and philosophy negates itself, all is left is theology and religion.
Well, isn't that convenient. The only things we can rely on are methods that are often indistinguishable from whole-cloth creation, which are themselves historically rife with bias and manipulation. But it just so happens that some theism - yours, most probably - has The Truth. Is that about right?
It is evident from life, and it says in the Bible to not lean on one's own understanding, but to fully rely on God. If you have ever (which is almost 100% likely) been on your own, and you've not trusted God to help you through, but tried to manage on your own, you will know that it is futile.
How do we distinguish between full reliance on God and mere conviction of such?
The Christian religion is belief, or more relevantly, trusting in God that he exists, tells the truth and loves us. There is no other way.
You're not too familiar with other belief systems, are you?
Non-christians must have a really hard time, since they try to get along under their own steam. I find that happening to me more often than not, and that's when I feel absolutely terrible, like I cannot continue, and want to resume the foetal position and die.
Good thing you think you have God to turn to then.
Philosophy has proven it's own worthlessness. Has anyone ever made any breakthroughs in it? NO.
You don't think Hume's elucidation of the Problem of Induction has affected common discourse in the last 250 years?
Language really is terribly over-rated.
In comparison to what, exactly?
 
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