Philosophical argument for the temporality of the universe

[Stormy]

If this universe was born of others that doesn't negate the fact theat time began with the universe, we just need to broaden our definition of the univrse to include those prior states. And when our universe ends, so also will end time. If time fails to end then the universe hasn't ended, since time is a property of the universe.

Our time, the time of all the creation that we know began with the Universe. But the Universe did not create time. It came from God.

I really do not know, if our reality and this Universe is all that there is, or ever was, or even ever will be. It could all disappear and still eternity could go on with God... I could go on with God.

The destruction of the created, does not destroy the Creator, nor those that He has saved. I may one day witness a new day for Earth, a time when all is made new.

How can that be, when something is old to be made new? It can only be possible by God who is outside of time and has complete mastery of all of time.

I think that humanity barely has a grasp of the concept of time.

 

[Danhalen]

The universe is changing, and that can only happen in a serious of "before and after." The universe operates within time. Time exists with space and matter. Therefore, the universe is not outside of time. If it was, it would be unchanging.

Unless time is a property of the universe.

 

[JBrian]

False premise right from the start. Your argument falls flat on it's face.

If God created time and space (the universe) how can God exist without it?

Because He is not part of it or dependent upon it. You are assuming that He is dependent upon time and the universe, but He is not.

 

[JBrian]

I say the universe is within time, but never ends because it bursts forth, then retracts upon itself, and bursts forth again. It is an eternal cycle of rebirth. The point where it ends is also its beginning.

Again, something that is eternal is outside of time and therefore outside of change. If the universe is outside of time it can't change. If it is within time, and it is changing, then it can't be eternal, and hence was created. Therefore the pulsating universe theory does not work.

 

[JBrian]

Unless time is a property of the universe.

Are you arguing that time cannot exist without space and matter? Could you clarify your argument please?

 

[Danhalen]

Are you arguing that time cannot exist without space and matter? Could you clarify your argument please?

In the absence of space and energy/matter there can be no change. If there is no change, time has no meaning.

 

[Soul_Searcher]

Hi Avatar,

"How can one take into account that which one cannot fathom?"

Do you take into account God? Can you fathom God?

"And how did you know my name is Horatio?"

Elementary Watson.

 

[Casstranquility]

Again, something that is eternal is outside of time and therefore outside of change. If the universe is outside of time it can't change. If it is within time, and it is changing, then it can't be eternal, and hence was created. Therefore the pulsating universe theory does not work.

I disagree...The place where the universe originated is the timeless infinity. From that realm the universe can eternally be reborn into time and into change.

 

[Soul_Searcher]

Hi Franklin,

"If God created time and space (the universe) how can God exist without it?"

I created Liquid Paper, and I can live without it!

 

[franklin]

Hi Franklin,

"If God created time and space (the universe) how can God exist without it?"

I created Liquid Paper, and I can live without it!

not the same thing. Poor comparison, poor argument.

 

[franklin]

Because He is not part of it or dependent upon it. You are assuming that He is dependent upon time and the universe, but He is not.

Well then, maybe you need to explain and answer my question: How can God exist without time?

 

[JBrian]

In the absence of space and energy/matter there can be no change. If there is no change, time has no meaning.

I agree. However, there is no such "place" in the universe.

 

[JBrian]

I disagree...The place where the universe originated is the timeless infinity. From that realm the universe can eternally be reborn into time and into change.

"The place where the universe originated" . . . Before the universe existed, there was no place. The universe cannot originate and be eternal. Something cannot originate that is outside time, because there would have to be a "time" when it did not exist, and then a time when it did. The absence of time = the absence of change. To "eternally be reborn" is to eternally change, which is a contradiction. Something cannot "always be" and "changing" at the same time in the same sense.

 

[JBrian]

Well then, maybe you need to explain and answer my question: How can God exist without time?

Because He is outside of time. That is exactly what eternal means. Why does God need time in order to exist?

 

[JBrian]

False premise right from the start. Your argument falls flat on it's face.

If God created time and space (the universe) how can God exist without it?

Also, if God "created" the universe and time, then He is by definition outside of and independent of time and the universe.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

The universe is changing, and that can only happen in a series of "before and after." The universe operates within time. Time exists with space and matter. Therefore, the universe is not outside of time. If it was, it would be unchanging.

The universe "is" time.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Acually your argument must break down:

Since time is a property of the universe time cannot exist without the universe. And this shall give my first premise:

P1 Time cannot exist without the universe​

A second premise I take from your OP:

P2 "[C]hange only occurs within time"​

C1: Change can only exist in the universe
C2: Without the universe there is no change

P3: An act of creation ex-nihilo constitutes a change - to wit: a change from nothing to something​

C3: Creation ex-nihilo of the universe is impossible.

 

[Danhalen]

I agree. However, there is no such "place" in the universe.

Right. Energy/matter and space comprise the universe. The position of said energy/matter within the space of the universe in reference to where it was is time.

 

[JBrian]

Acually your argument must break down:


Since time is a property of the universe time cannot exist without the universe. And this shall give my first premise:

P1 Time cannot exist without the universe​

A second premise I take from your OP:

P2 "[c]hange only occurs within time"​

C1: Change can only exist in the universe
C2: Without the universe there is no change

P3: An act of creation ex-nihilo constitutes a change - to wit: a change from nothing to something​

C3: Creation ex-nihilo of the universe is impossible.

Premise 3 is not correct. In order for something to change something has to exist in order to change. Nothing (no thing) cannot change. The creation of the universe is therefore not a change, it is a creation. In order for a change to take place something must remain the same, otherwise it would not be a change, but rather something that ceases to exist and the creation of a new thing. There is nothing that remains the same during an ex nihilo creation, it is just that, a creation. So creation ex nihilo is possible. However it is impossible that the universe is eternal, since it is changing and what is eternal is outside of time by definition, and hence immutable.

 

[JBrian]

Right. Energy/matter and space comprise the universe. The position of said energy/matter within the space of the universe in reference to where it was is time.

While space, matter and time must exist together it is impossible that the universe is eternal. By definition the term eternal means outside of time, and therefore what is said to be eternal is not possible to change since the change must take place within time. So the universe is within time.