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Peter the First Pope?

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Wisdom's Child

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Here is another....
Noble in purpose....but executed horribly......
Pope Urban II's Crusade to take Jerusalem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade

The repercussions and consequences of that is still being delt with today.
 
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Trento

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Let's start with the Spanish Inquisition. Please explain that away as anything but abusive and horrific.

Shall we move on to the fact that Pope Clement VIII was murderous and brutal - burning at the stake (among others) Giordano Bruno, and was openly anti-semitic. I really love his following writing:

Pope Pious IX was also openly anti-semitic. In fact, he called the Jews "dogs of which there are too many present in Rome, howling and disturbing us everywhere". In truth, it can be well argued that the Roman Catholic Church's anti-semitism played a role in the rise of the Nazi Holocaust.


I'll let you chew on those ones, and try to explain them away as "no problem". Or... you could just admit that the Papacy has a history of abuses and horrors.


How about chewing on this.


Contrary to the fabrications of Contra-Catholic Revisionist History there are ,
the following testimonies emphasizing the truth of what really happened
in that period when Pope Pius XII was confronting the Holocaust.

"No Christmas sermon reaches a larger congregation than the message Pope Pius XII addresses to a war-torn world at this season. This Christmas more than ever
he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent."
The New York Times, December 25, 1942
******
"I should like you to take this occasion to express to His Holiness my deeply-felt appreciation of the frequent action which the Holy See has taken on its own
initiative in its generous and merciful efforts to render assistance
to the victims of racial and religious persecutions."
Franklin D. Roosevelt to Myron C. Taylor, August 3, 1944
******
". . . I told him [the Pope] that my first duty was to thank him , and through him, the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public, for all they had done in the
various countries to rescue Jews, to save children, and Jews in general."
Moshe Sharett, Later First Israeli Foreign Minister (April 1945)
******
"In all these painful matters, I referred to the Holy See and afterwards I simply
carried out the Pope's orders: first and foremost to save human lives."
Angelo Cardinal Roncalli, Patriarch of Venice, Later Pope John XXIII (1957)
******
"When fearful martyrdom came to our people, the voice of the
pope was raised for its victims."
Golda Meir, Israeli Foreign (October 1958)
*******
"He was a great and good man, and I loved him."
Field Marshal Bernard Law Montgomery,London Sunday Times (October 12, 1958)
******
"It seems evident to me that the principles, reaffirmed by Pope Pacelli in his first encyclical [Summi Pontificatus], and repeated forcefully at every circumstance, above all in the Christmas messages of the war years,
constitute the most concrete condemnation of the Hitlerian type of absolutism."
Eugene Cardinal Tisserant, New York Times (February 26, 1964)
******
"Pope Pius XII did not remain silent."
Jeno Levai (1966)
******
". . . the Catholic Church, under the pontificate of Pope Pius XII was instrumental
in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000,
Jews from certain death at Nazi hands."
Pinchas E. Lapide, Three Popes and the Jews (1967)
******
"Pope Pius XII, the one pontiff with whom I was acquainted, was an interesting man who, after 1945, came in for what almost surely is an unfair amount of criticism
because he didn't stop the conflict Hitler started and because he didn't
do more to save Europe's Jews from Nazi extermination."
C. L. Sulzberger, Go Gentle Into the Night (1976)
******
"What we can say already, in light of what we have learned, is that
the Nazis considered Pius XII and his collaborators as their greatest enemies,
and that, reciprocally, the Pope and his entourage saw the Nazis as criminals
working for the destruction of the Church and civilization."
Jean Chelini, Le Figaro (October 8, 1983)
******
"The gratitude [to Pope Pius XII] of the world Jewish leaders, for deeds to which their own archives are witness, was transformed after 1963 into totally negative commentary. The well-intentioned, informed world Jewish community was downgraded to 'disgraceful testimonials of a few Jews' (New York Times, September 27, 1989), Letters)."

Rev. Robert A. Graham, S. J. (October 1989)
******
". . . that there was no direction given by the Pope in helping the Jews recalls the argument of David Irving, the English author, who in 1977 tried to absolve Adolf Hitler of any responsibility for the Final Solution simply because historians could not find a document proving his responsibility for persecuting the Jews. The failure of historians to find any explicit instructions does not necessarily consititute proof that Hitler was not behind the persecution of the Jews or that Pius XII did not encourage the help given by the Catholic clergy and laity to the Jews, since, as any historian knows, directives can be given orally as well as in writing [actually, as early as 23 December 1940, Pius did send a secret instruction, Opere et caritate, to his bishops to help victims like the Jews]."
Rev. Vincent A. Lapomarda, S. J. (July 31, 1992)
******
"Anyone who does not limit himself to cheap polemics knows very well what
Pius XII thought of the Nazi regime and how much he did to help countless people
persecuted by the regime."
Pope John Paul II (1995)
******
"He was a great pope."
Pope John Paul II (March 21, 1998)
******
"In his 1942 Christmas message, which The New York Times among others
extolled, the pope became the first figure of international stature
to condemn what was turning into the Holocaust."
Kenneth Woodward, Newsweek (March 30, 1998)
******
"Before any more fingers are pointed at Pius XII --- who did more to save the Jews than anyone else --- let him first take a hard historical look at what his ideological kinfolk did at the time of the Holocaust. The New Republic, like The New York Timesand The Washington Post, are the ones who need to apologize for their shameful silence in the face of genocide and stop with the scapegoating of Pius XII."
William A. Donohue, President, Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights
Catalyst, 27, No. 4 (May 2000), 10
******
". . . Pius XII was, genuinely and profoundly, a righteous gentile."
Rabbi David G. Dalin, The Weekly Standard, February 26, 2001

(also see his "History as Bigotry," in the February 10, 2003 issue).

Pius XII? "This is the only human being who has always contradicted me "
and who has never obeyed me."
Adolf Hitler --- from Hans Jansen's The Silent Pope? (2000)



Israel Zoller (Zolli), Rome's Chief Rabbi during World War II, not only converted to
Roman Catholicism he took the same baptismal name, Eugenio, as Pius XII
in appreciation of what the Pope had done for the Jews.


In the seven plots to overthrow Adolf Hitler, Pius XII was involved
in at least two of them.

More than 4,000 Catholic priests were killed by the Nazis, incuding 868 Poles at Dachau,
780 from various nations at Mauthausen, and 123 shot in France (one estimate holds
that at least 4,000 were killed at Buchenwald alone).
 
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DArceri

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Well Juerasalem was to be destroyed according to Revelations. The early fathers built the church in Rome. And notice how Elikiam no matter how sinful, still possesed such powers.

And pope is papa which is father. Elikiam and his successors are called FATHER (Pope in Latin).
It could be argued that Catholic priests at various times throughout history are really not much different than the priests and Pharisees of Jesus' time who sought to put him to death. But of course much like the Pharisees, lacking humility, the Catholic elite are not open to criticism. Consider for example how Jesus speaks of them in Matthew 23 which among other things says, "And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven." Jesus spoke against the usage of elitist titles. Yet Catholic priests not only take on the title father, but even capitalize it to "Father so-and-so". So also they dress in religious garbs so as to once again distinguish themselves from ordinary Catholics.
 
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Trento

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The Church of Rome uses tradition and the teaching of the Church to propagate and defend doctrines and practices which have absolutely no Scriptural authority whatsoever. For example, her dogmas of the Mass, Papal Infallibility and Mariolatry.



Scripture is not the sole rule of faith for Christians. Not according to the Bible. While we must guard against merely human tradition, the Bible contains numerous references to the necessity of clinging to apostolic tradition.

Thus Paul tells the Corinthians, "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2), and he commands the Thessalonians, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15). He even goes so far as to order, "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us" (2 Thess. 3:6).

To make sure that the apostolic tradition would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first four generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, the generation Timothy will teach, and the generation they in turn will teach.

The early Church Fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, recognized the necessity of the traditions that had been handed down from the apostles and guarded them scrupulously, as the following quotations show.


Papias


"Papias [A.D. 120], who is now mentioned by us, affirms that he received the sayings of the apostles from those who accompanied them, and he, moreover, asserts that he heard in person Aristion and the presbyter John. Accordingly, he mentions them frequently by name, and in his writings gives their traditions [concerning Jesus]. . . . [There are] other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from tradition" (fragment in Eusebius, Church History 3:39 [A.D. 312]).


Eusebius of Caesarea


"At that time [A.D. 150] there flourished in the Church Hegesippus, whom we know from what has gone before, and Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, and another bishop, Pinytus of Crete, and besides these, Philip, and Apollinarius, and Melito, and Musanus, and Modestus, and, finally, Irenaeus. From them has come down to us in writing, the sound and orthodox faith received from tradition" (Church History 4:21).


Irenaeus


"As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same" (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).

"That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. . . . What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?" (ibid., 3:4:1).

...

"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times—men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles.

"With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree—that is, all the faithful in the whole world—and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:1–2).

Go into the Catacombs of the first Christian martyrs and you will see the Catholic Mass and all the Catholic doctrines practiced by the first Christians.
 
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NewCatholic

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I understand that to you - who has been told this all your life - it is very clear.

Actually, as recent poll in GT has revealed, over half of the Catholics posting here are former Protestants (and even a few ordained Protestant ministers). Perhaps people should check those false assumptions that they were taught all their life before making statements like that.
 
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P

Peaceful Dove

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Oy vey!
I can see God shaking His head right now.

Lord help us. :prayer:

REALLY???
I have always wondered, what color is His hair.

You have no idea in the world what God is doing.
He might be nodding, "yes,good job".

Probably isn't a good idea to put words in God's mouth for Him. He is more than able to speak for Himself.
 
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DArceri

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From Trento:

Thus Paul tells the Corinthians, "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2), and he commands the Thessalonians, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15). He even goes so far as to order, "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us" (2 Thess. 3:6).


What I see is, " hold to the traditions which you were taught by us" .

Paul would not recognized the Church today if he were alive today (ie indulgences, mariolotry,...).
 
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jckstraw72

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Paul would not recognized the Church today if he were alive today (ie indulgences, mariolotry,...).

thats interesting, bc it was Paul's traveling buddy, Luke, who wrote the words of the Angel "Hail, Mary full of grace" and Mary's own words "From henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."
 
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DArceri

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You mean Jesus, God the Father is Spirit.


Sorry, the reply button is not working for me. This is in response to Peaceful Dove's comment:
REALLY???
I have always wondered, what color is His hair.

You have no idea in the world what God is doing.
He might be nodding, "yes,good job".

Probably isn't a good idea to put words in God's mouth for Him. He is more than able to speak for Himself.
 
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DArceri

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Jesus also said dont call anyone teacher....what's that guy called that taught you math in 10th grade?

"And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."

This quote from Matthew is obviously talking about the religious elite. Everyone on earth has a father (with a small "f").
 
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jckstraw72

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This quote from Matthew is obviously talking about the religious elite. Everyone on earth has a father (with a small f).

1 Timothy 5

1Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;




1 Corinthians 4:14-16


14I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me
 
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ParsonJefferson

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How about chewing on this.


Contrary to the fabrications of Contra-Catholic Revisionist History there are ,
the following testimonies emphasizing the truth of what really happened
in that period when Pope Pius XII was confronting the Holocaust.

"No Christmas sermon reaches a larger congregation than the message Pope Pius XII addresses to a war-torn world at this season. This Christmas more than ever
he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent."
The New York Times, December 25, 1942
******
"I should like you to take this occasion to express to His Holiness my deeply-felt appreciation of the frequent action which the Holy See has taken on its own
initiative in its generous and merciful efforts to render assistance
to the victims of racial and religious persecutions."
Franklin D. Roosevelt to Myron C. Taylor, August 3, 1944
******
". . . I told him [the Pope] that my first duty was to thank him , and through him, the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public, for all they had done in the
various countries to rescue Jews, to save children, and Jews in general."
Moshe Sharett, Later First Israeli Foreign Minister (April 1945)
******
"In all these painful matters, I referred to the Holy See and afterwards I simply
carried out the Pope's orders: first and foremost to save human lives."
Angelo Cardinal Roncalli, Patriarch of Venice, Later Pope John XXIII (1957)
******
"When fearful martyrdom came to our people, the voice of the
pope was raised for its victims."
Golda Meir, Israeli Foreign (October 1958)
*******
"He was a great and good man, and I loved him."
Field Marshal Bernard Law Montgomery,London Sunday Times (October 12, 1958)
******
"It seems evident to me that the principles, reaffirmed by Pope Pacelli in his first encyclical [Summi Pontificatus], and repeated forcefully at every circumstance, above all in the Christmas messages of the war years,
constitute the most concrete condemnation of the Hitlerian type of absolutism."
Eugene Cardinal Tisserant, New York Times (February 26, 1964)
******
"Pope Pius XII did not remain silent."
Jeno Levai (1966)
******
". . . the Catholic Church, under the pontificate of Pope Pius XII was instrumental
in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000,
Jews from certain death at Nazi hands."
Pinchas E. Lapide, Three Popes and the Jews (1967)
******
"Pope Pius XII, the one pontiff with whom I was acquainted, was an interesting man who, after 1945, came in for what almost surely is an unfair amount of criticism
because he didn't stop the conflict Hitler started and because he didn't
do more to save Europe's Jews from Nazi extermination."
C. L. Sulzberger, Go Gentle Into the Night (1976)
******
"What we can say already, in light of what we have learned, is that
the Nazis considered Pius XII and his collaborators as their greatest enemies,
and that, reciprocally, the Pope and his entourage saw the Nazis as criminals
working for the destruction of the Church and civilization."
Jean Chelini, Le Figaro (October 8, 1983)
******
"The gratitude [to Pope Pius XII] of the world Jewish leaders, for deeds to which their own archives are witness, was transformed after 1963 into totally negative commentary. The well-intentioned, informed world Jewish community was downgraded to 'disgraceful testimonials of a few Jews' (New York Times, September 27, 1989), Letters)."

Rev. Robert A. Graham, S. J. (October 1989)
******
". . . that there was no direction given by the Pope in helping the Jews recalls the argument of David Irving, the English author, who in 1977 tried to absolve Adolf Hitler of any responsibility for the Final Solution simply because historians could not find a document proving his responsibility for persecuting the Jews. The failure of historians to find any explicit instructions does not necessarily consititute proof that Hitler was not behind the persecution of the Jews or that Pius XII did not encourage the help given by the Catholic clergy and laity to the Jews, since, as any historian knows, directives can be given orally as well as in writing [actually, as early as 23 December 1940, Pius did send a secret instruction, Opere et caritate, to his bishops to help victims like the Jews]."
Rev. Vincent A. Lapomarda, S. J. (July 31, 1992)
******
"Anyone who does not limit himself to cheap polemics knows very well what
Pius XII thought of the Nazi regime and how much he did to help countless people
persecuted by the regime."
Pope John Paul II (1995)
******
"He was a great pope."
Pope John Paul II (March 21, 1998)
******
"In his 1942 Christmas message, which The New York Times among others
extolled, the pope became the first figure of international stature
to condemn what was turning into the Holocaust."
Kenneth Woodward, Newsweek (March 30, 1998)
******
"Before any more fingers are pointed at Pius XII --- who did more to save the Jews than anyone else --- let him first take a hard historical look at what his ideological kinfolk did at the time of the Holocaust. The New Republic, like The New York Timesand The Washington Post, are the ones who need to apologize for their shameful silence in the face of genocide and stop with the scapegoating of Pius XII."
William A. Donohue, President, Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights
Catalyst, 27, No. 4 (May 2000), 10
******
". . . Pius XII was, genuinely and profoundly, a righteous gentile."
Rabbi David G. Dalin, The Weekly Standard, February 26, 2001

(also see his "History as Bigotry," in the February 10, 2003 issue).

Pius XII? "This is the only human being who has always contradicted me "
and who has never obeyed me."
Adolf Hitler --- from Hans Jansen's The Silent Pope? (2000)



Israel Zoller (Zolli), Rome's Chief Rabbi during World War II, not only converted to
Roman Catholicism he took the same baptismal name, Eugenio, as Pius XII
in appreciation of what the Pope had done for the Jews.


In the seven plots to overthrow Adolf Hitler, Pius XII was involved
in at least two of them.

More than 4,000 Catholic priests were killed by the Nazis, incuding 868 Poles at Dachau,
780 from various nations at Mauthausen, and 123 shot in France (one estimate holds
that at least 4,000 were killed at Buchenwald alone).


How about chewing on the Spanish Inquisition for awhile.

And you should have read a little more closely. I was referring to Pious IX (9), not Pious XII (12).

Again, for an "infallible" Papacy, there sure seem to have been a LOT of mistakes made over the years.
 
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DArceri

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1 Timothy 5

1Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;




1 Corinthians 4:14-16


14I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me
But all their works they do to be seen by men.
Matthew 23

5 They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments,
6 and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,

13 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
For you devour widows’ houses,
and as a pretense you make long prayers.
Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

14 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men; for you don’t enter in yourselves,
neither do you allow those who are entering in to enter.
 
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Trento

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The Church of Rome uses tradition and the teaching of the Church to propagate and defend doctrines and practices which have absolutely no Scriptural authority whatsoever. For example, her dogmas of the Mass, Papal Infallibility and Mariolatry.

It could be argued that Catholic priests at various times throughout history are really not much different than the priests and Pharisees of Jesus' time who sought to put him to death. But of course much like the Pharisees, lacking humility, the Catholic elite are not open to criticism. Consider for example how Jesus speaks of them in Matthew 23 which among other things says, "And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven." Jesus spoke against the usage of elitist titles. Yet Catholic priests not only take on the title father, but even capitalize it to "Father so-and-so". So also they dress in religious garbs so as to once again distinguish themselves from ordinary Catholics.


You must think Catholics are a bunch of ignorent sheep coming up with all these
ridiculous reformational objections attacking the largest and oldest Christian institution on earth.

In Matthew 23:9, Jesus emphasizes the primary role of our Heavenly Father. He created us in His image and likeness (Gen. 1:26-28). He made us His children through baptism in the death and resurrection of His Son (Rom. 5:12-21; 6:3-4; 8:12-17). Because God created us in His image and likeness, we share in the attributes of God. Insofar as men share in the attributes of the Father, they participate in the one fatherhood of God.
If we believe your opinions, then what are we to make of the Scriptures that contradict this one? For example, in Mark 7:9-13, Jesus criticizes the Pharisees and scribes for not honoring their “fathers.” Furthermore, calling the apostles and their successors “father” was common within the early Christian communities (1 Cor. 4:15, 1 Jn. 2:12, Acts 7:2, 22:1). As in the case of all scriptural interpretations, we must understand this passage in light of the rest of Scripture (cf. 2 Pet. 1:20; 3:16). This interpretative principle is called the “analogy of faith”
In Deuteronomy 5:16, God commands, “Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you; that your days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with you, in the land which the Lord your God gives you.” God made this command after telling us to honor Him. With this in mind, it seems reasonable to conclude that God Himself considers others to be “fathers.” Jesus upholds this commandment in Mark 7:9-13. In that passage, He berates the scribes and Pharisees who used traditions to rationalize not providing assistance to their fathers. It is clear that He means someone other than God.
The title “father” does not confer upon priests the same status proper to Our Heavenly Father alone, nor does it diminish God’s absolute and universal fatherhood. However, it is incorrect to interpret Matthew 23:9 in an exclusively literal sense. In 1 Corinthians 4:15, St. Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, says, “For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the Gospel.” St. Paul calls himself “father” because he recognizes his cooperation with God in begetting the spiritual life of the community entrusted to his care.

There are several other passages, such as 1 Corinthians 4:15; 1 John 2:12; Acts 7:2, and Acts 22:1, which show that the title “father” was applied to others besides God in the New Testament.

The objection to calling our spiritual elders "Father" appears to be of recent origin. In his article "Are ‘Mother’ and ‘Father’ Appropriate Titles for Protestant Clergy?" David L. Holmes, a professor of religious studies at the College of William and Mary, explores the question of titles used to address clergy. In doing so, he examines the history of the use of the title "Father" for clergymen in the Christian churches in America.
He notes that:

In colonial America, "Father" was a commonly used term not only for respected clergymen but also for other respected men of the church: founders of denominations or religious communities, missionary pioneers, and the elderly who were mature in their faith. In early America "Father" was also a general title of respect for elderly men.
The term "Father" was not rejected in an attempt to be more biblical. Holmes states that even denominations that were founded "in an attempt to restore not only the doctrine and practice of primitive Christianity, but also its very nomenclature" retained the use of "Father" in addressing clergymen.
"Like the Reformers, early American Protestants tended to believe that the Matthean passage condemned pharisaic vainglory rather than specific titles. That interpretation was natural, for a literal interpretation of the surrounding verses would also forbid Christians from using ‘Teacher’ and ‘Mister.’"
 
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ParsonJefferson

just LOVES the flagrantly biased moderating here
Mar 14, 2006
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I understand that to you - who has been told this all your life - it is very clear.quote]

Actually, as recent poll in GT revealed that over half of the Catholics posting here are former Protestants (and even a few ordained Protestant ministers). Perhaps people should check those false assumptions that theywere taught all your life before making statements like that.


And one of my very dear friends is a Lutheran pastor who grew up Catholic, graduated from Notre Dame, and converted to Lutheranism later in life.

So what is that proof of?
 
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