Peter Is Not The Rock!

[LittleLambofJesus]

Again, source please? I am less interested in a forum thread than I am an actual Catholic source for your claims. What you have stated is certainly quite different than what the Catholic catechism states, and does not align with the more recent remarks by Pope Benedict either. I'm sure you think you know best, but I'd really prefer to see your statements backed up with actual facts.

Greetings. How much do the RCs rely on their Catechism?

Joshua 13:33 But to tribe of the Levi, not Moses gave an allotment/inheritance, for YHWH, Elohiym of Israel, He their inheritance, as which He spake to them.

Reve 7:7 Out of tribe of Simeon, twleve thousands, out of tribe of Levi, twelve thousands; out of tribe of Issachar, twelve thousands [*having been sealed];

 

[Anglian]

Dear Narnia,

You patience is a model for us all; it is certainly a powerful witness to your Church. We may inherit two different traditions of what the Primacy of the See of St. Peter means, but that does not stop me from seeing the merit in your argument. Thanks, too, for providing some proper contextualisation.

I wonder if it might be helpful to look at Dominus Iesus, issued by the CDF in August 2000? (To be found in full here:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
There's nothing here to contravene what we know - which is that God alone decides who is saved.

Thanks for all your efforts.

Peace

Anglian

 

[narnia59]

I trust that you have read all of this, especially the final paragraph, "Anyone who receives the sacrament of baptism, whether in the Catholic Church or in a heretical or schismatic one, receives the whole sacrament; but salvation, which is the strength of the sacrament, he will not have, if he has had the sacrament outside the Catholic Church [and remains in deliberate schism]. He must therefore return to the Church, not so that he might receive again the sacrament of baptism, which no one dare repeat in any baptized person, but so that he may receive eternal life in Catholic society, for the obtaining of which no one is suited who, even with the sacrament of baptism, remains estranged from the Catholic Church"

So, which is correct - this or Pope Benedict's statements?

Both. There is not a conflict between the two. It is only when one begins with a conclusion and seeks to prove it with selected information instead of drawing on all information to reach a conclusion the conflict seems to be.

First of all, regarding the "last paragraph", neither Fulgentius of Ruspe not the paragraph itself are 'dogmatic'. Simply the opinion of yet one more theologian, although certainly shows a pattern of thought. Is it not important to look at culture? This is pre-schism, pre-Reformation -- so cannot be construed to damn Orthodox and Protestants (or Catholics and Protestants from the Orthodox point of view).

In all of the above, here is your key:

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

So, ask yourself and answer the question. Have you knowingly and deliberately rejected divinely revealed doctrine and refused to enter the Catholic church?

Because if your answer is no, then the Catholic church would consider you to be in innocent ignorance. A title you may not believe is applicable, but remember, we're talking about what the Catholic church teaches here, not you.

This is why there is no conflict, especially hundreds of years after a major breach in Christian unity, for Pope Benedict to say "It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them."

Another little point -- the Catholic church had not and never will make any authoritative statement about the ultimate damnation of any individual person. It is a role that belongs only to God. Given that, it's hard to understand how one could profess that the church teaches any 'group' of people are damned.

So my turn -- to what benefit is it to continue to portray the Catholic church as teaching something it does not?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

That depends on who schismed from who

http://members.cox.net/orthodoxheritage/MOM%2008%202007.htm

The Papacy and Its Unholy State: A Worldwide W a k e - u p C a l l to Orthodox Leaders

On July 10, 2007, Pope Benedict XVI reasserted the "universal primacy" of his Roman Catholic church, approving a document released on Tuesday, July 10, 2007, proclaiming that Orthodox Churches are "defective." This was the Pontiff’s latest manner of insulting Jesus Christ and His True Church...............

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7213672&page=44
Is Catholicism the same Church that the Apostles set up

 

[Anglian]

Dear LLOJ,

All Churches have in them those whose zeal outruns their Christian charity. In the Orthodox Church we call them the OTT (Orthodox Taliban Tendency), I don't know what those in other Churches call them.

They are sincere, of course, but they may well be sincerely wrong. Anyone who arrogates to him or herself God's prerogative of deciding who is saved and who is not should stop and think what they are doing. God, alone, is perfect, and His wisdom may well be foolishness to sinful man, even as our wisdom may be foolishness in the eyes of the omniscient.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

They are sincere, of course, but they may well be sincerely wrong. Anyone who arrogates to him or herself God's prerogative of deciding who is saved and who is not should stop and think what they are doing. God, alone, is perfect, and His wisdom may well be foolishness to sinful man, even as our wisdom may be foolishness in the eyes of the omniscient.
Peace,
Anglian

Greetings Anglian. Yes, that is what Solomon asked YHWH for in the OC. We should all pray for such. Peace

Luke 3:6 And shall-be-seeing All flesh the Salvation of the God.'

Reve 13:18 Here the Wisdom is, the one having Mind let him calculate the number of the beast for of man it is and the number of it six hundred sixty six.

 

[beamishboy]

How can you determine the RC position, yet only pull out one statement and ignore the rest of the direct quotations? Like this one immediately following the sentence you quoted. "The pope further emphasizes the higher position of the spiritual in comparison with the secular order. From these premises he then draws conclusions concerning the relation between the spiritual power of the Church and secular authority."

It also says this -- "The statements concerning the relations between the spiritual and the secular power are of a purely historical character, so far as they do not refer to the nature of the spiritual power, and are based on the actual conditions of medieval Western Europe."

Even if your personal interpretation were close to valid, your assertion that it would produce a sort of 'conflict' between the church teaching that non-Catholics can indeed be saved and the charism of infallibility of the papal office still shows a lack of understanding as to how that charism is exercised.

There is a big difference between reading in context with a heart to seek to truly understand what another believes, regardless of whether one agrees with it, and reading to find daggers to fling that have no concern with actual truth. I would suggest you limit your studies to the first approach.

Hi,

I am surprised you still don't get the point. Whatever your church may say about the historical significance of the Unam Sanctam the fact is the Papal Bull did not limit its scope to only rulers and potentates. From the beginning to the end, it talks about the necessity to be in the RC church in order to be saved. It ends with these poignant words: "it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff." If your church does not repeal this Bull, it cannot now pretend to limit it to kings and rulers because that's not what the Bull says. One cannot be wishy-washy and woolly-headed in one's treatment of a document like that. Is the document true? Look at the words of the document. Never mind what your church says about the documents centuries later. Read it for yourself. Read those words I've printed in bold red above. The meaning is clear. Every human creature, not just kings and politicians. Accept it or reject it but you cannot white-wash its meaning by glossing over it. That is the objection I have to the way RCs read anything - whether it's the Bible or even their own papal documents. They have to learn to be clear in their reading. Words do have meanings!

 

[Anglian]

Greetings Anglian. Yes, that is what Solomon asked YHWH for in the OC. We should all pray for such. Peace

Dear LLOJ,

Much WISDOM there.

As my beloved St. Isaac of Nineveh wrote so many years ago:

I am of the opinion that He is going to manifest some wonderful outcome, a matter of immense and ineffable compassion on the part of the glorious Creator, with respect to the ordering of this difficult matter of Gehenna’s torment: out of it the wealth of His love and power and wisdom will become known all the more - and so will the insistent might of the waves of His goodness. It is not the way of the compassionate Maker to create rational beings in order to deliver them over mercilessly to unending affliction in punishment for things of which He knew even before they were fashioned, aware how they would turn out when He created them - and whom nonetheless He created

Peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

From the beginning to the end, it talks about the necessity to be in the RC church in order to be saved. It ends with these poignant words: "it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff." If your church does not repeal this Bull, it cannot now pretend to limit it to kings and rulers because that's not what the Bull says.

Greetings bm. Why not just put that in yer siggy so ya don't have to repeat it

Genesis 21:9 And Sarah is seeing the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne for Abraham, scoffing. 10 And she is saying to Abraham, "Cast-out!/01644 garash thou the maid-servant, this, and the son of her that not shall shall the son of the maid-servant,this, tenant/03423 yarash with son of me, with Isaac. [Gala 4:30]

Gala 4:30 but what saith the Writing? `Be thou Casting-Out!/ekbale <1544> (5628) the maid-servant and her son, for the son of the maid-servant may not be lawful-heir/klhro-nomhsh <2816> (5661) with the son of the free-one;' [Gene 21:9]

2816. kleronomeo klay-ron-om-eh'-o from 2818; to be an heir to (literally or figuratively):--be heir, (obtain by) inherit(-ance).
2819. kleros klay'-ros probably from 2806 (through the idea of using bits of wood, etc., for the purpose; a die (for drawing chances); by implication, a portion (as if so secured); by extension, an acquisition (especially a patrimony, figuratively):--heritage, inheritance, lot, part.
3551. nomos nom'-os from a primary nemo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specially, (of Moses (including the volume); also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle):--law.

 

[beamishboy]

Greetings bm. Why not just put that in yer siggy so ya don't have to repeat it

Hi LLOJ,

Actually OttoRick already has that quotation of the Unam Sanctam in his siggy. The beamishboy doesn't want to look like he's infringing copyright. Strictly speaking, copyright should vest in the RC church since the Unam Sanctam is their prized document; it's one big Papal Bull. Hehe.

 

[Anglian]

Dear LLOJ,

I think Narnia's point is that it is being quoted out of context. There is nothing in Pope Benedict's writings or pronouncements, or those of John Paul II, to support the interpretation being put on the words; but I guess if others think they know better than the Catholic Pope what Catholics hold, there's no holding back those who are more infallible than the infallible Pope.

Plus Catholique que le pape?

Peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi LLOJ,

Actually OttoRick already has that quotation of the Unam Sanctam in his siggy. The beamishboy doesn't want to look like he's infringing copyright. Strictly speaking, copyright should vest in the RC church since the Unam Sanctam is their prized document; it's one big Papal Bull. Hehe.

Bulls are only good for one thing:

Hebrews 13:11 For, in the case of those living-ones whose blood for sins is carried into the holy-places through the Chief-priest of these, the bodies are burned outside the camp/parembolhV <3925>.

Reve 20:9 And they did ascend over the breadth of the land, and did compass the Camp/parembolhn <3925> of the Saints, and the City, the having been loved. And descended fire from the God out of the heaven, and devoured them;

 

[Anglian]

Dear LLOJ,

As an ex-farmer, I can confirm that, from the perspective of my cows, that was their confirmed view.

From the farmer's point of view, bulls came in handy for all sorts of things. Never, however, insult a bull - it's not true what they say about red.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dear LLOJ,

As an ex-farmer, I can confirm that, from the perspective of my cows, that was their confirmed view.

From the farmer's point of view, bulls came in handy for all sorts of things. Never, however, insult a bull - it's not true what they say about red.

Peace,

Anglian

Yeah. I hear the Jews are not having much success breeding a Red Heifer for their new Temple.
I am now working on 1 King 18 to harmonize it with Reve 20:9, just one of many passages I have harmonized to it. I love this Chapter!!!!

1 King 18:37 "Answer thou me YHWH! Answer thou me! and the people, this, shall know that Thou YHWH the Elohiym and Thou turn-around their heart backward" 38 And fire of YHWH is falling and is devouring the ascent-offering, and the woods and the stones and the soil and the waters which in trench is licked up. 39 And all of the people is seeing and they are falling on their faces and they are saying "YHWH, He the Elohiym" 40 And Elijah is saying to them "grab ye! the prophets of the Baal. Must not be a man escaping from them". And they are grabbing them and Elijah is bringing down them to watercourse of Qiyshown and he is slaying them there.

Reve 20:9 And they ascended upon the breadth of the land and surround the camp of the Saints and the City, the beloved and descended fire out of the heaven [*from the God] and it devoured them.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What I find interesting is the greek word for Baal used in Romans 11 is almost exactly the way it is in the Hebrew and that doesn't happen very often.

1 King 18:40 And 'Eliyah is saying to them "grab ye! the prophets of the Ba`al. Must not be a man escaping from them". And they are grabbing them and 'Eliyah is bringing down them to watercourse of Qiyshown and he is slaying them there.

Romans 11:4 "But what is saying to him the divine-response 'I left to Myself seven-thousand who-any not bow a knee to baal <896>'" [1 King 19:18]

 

[narnia59]

Dear Narnia,

You patience is a model for us all; it is certainly a powerful witness to your Church. We may inherit two different traditions of what the Primacy of the See of St. Peter means, but that does not stop me from seeing the merit in your argument. Thanks, too, for providing some proper contextualisation.

I wonder if it might be helpful to look at Dominus Iesus, issued by the CDF in August 2000? (To be found in full here:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
There's nothing here to contravene what we know - which is that God alone decides who is saved.

Thanks for all your efforts.

Peace

Anglian

Thank you very much Anglian. And yes, we do know that God alone decides who is saved.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thank you very much Anglian. And yes, we do know that God alone decides who is saved.

Do the RCs feel they will get a better or more reward than us non-RCs? Just curious.

Matt 5:12 Be ye rejoicing and be ye being exulted, that the wages/misqoV <3408> of ye much in the Heavens, for thus they persecute the prophets, they before ye. [Luke 6:23]

Revelation 22:12 And behold!, I am coming swiftly and the wages/misqoV <3408> of Me with Me, to render to each as the work is of Him

Reve 11:18 And the nations are angered and came the wrath of Thee and the time of the dead to be judged, and to give the wages to the bond-servants of Thee, the prophets and to the saints, and to the ones fearing the name of Thee,

 

[narnia59]

Do the RCs feel they will get a better or more reward than us non-RCs? Just curious.

Matt 5:12 Be ye rejoicing and be ye being exulted, that the wages/misqoV <3408> of ye much in the Heavens, for thus they persecute the prophets, they before ye. [Luke 6:23]

Revelation 22:12 And behold!, I am coming swiftly and the wages/misqoV <3408> of Me with Me, to render to each as the work is of Him

Reve 11:18 And the nations are angered and came the wrath of Thee and the time of the dead to be judged, and to give the wages to the bond-servants of Thee, the prophets and to the saints, and to the ones fearing the name of Thee,

Nope.

 

[narnia59]

Greetings. How much do the RCs rely on their Catechism?

Joshua 13:33 But to tribe of the Levi, not Moses gave an allotment/inheritance, for YHWH, Elohiym of Israel, He their inheritance, as which He spake to them.

Reve 7:7 Out of tribe of Simeon, twleve thousands, out of tribe of Levi, twelve thousands; out of tribe of Issachar, twelve thousands [*having been sealed];

What do you mean by 'rely'?

In terms of undertanding what the church actually teaches, it's quite valuable.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What do you mean by 'rely'?

In terms of undertanding what the church actually teaches, it's quite valuable.

Oh Ok.

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV, and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?' [Daniel 12/Revelation 19]

Reve 15:1 And I saw another Sign in the heaven, great and marvelous. Messengers, seven, having blows, seven, the last. That in them is finished/e-telesqh <5055> (5681) the fury of the God.