Peter Is Not The Rock!

[StTherese]

Everyone has a bias except for the Catholics who believe the one and only truth. (I'm tempted to ™ that phrase as well.)



</sarcasm>

What makes you a Lutheran and not part of some other denomination?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

What makes you a Lutheran and not part of some other denomination?

The fact that after all the prayerful considerations, Luther was the closest to the scriptures. For every doctrine he put forth, he had scriptures (not traditions) to back him up. He's certainly not perfect, not by a long shot, but concerning God's word, he had it right.

Since I realize this is a loaded question, it will be interesting to see how you respond to it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by PreachersWife2004

Everyone has a bias except for the Catholics who believe the one and only truth. (I'm tempted to ™ that phrase as well.)



</sarcasm>

Sounds like a good Siggy add on.

 

[StTherese]

The fact that after all the prayerful considerations, Luther was the closest to the scriptures.

I disagree. He had his own interpretations of the scriptures. He even took out books of the Bible that did not support his beliefs...

For every doctrine he put forth, he had scriptures (not traditions) to back him up. He's certainly not perfect, not by a long shot, but concerning God's word, he had it right.

Really? So, it was right for him to reject books of the Bible that didn't support his beliefs?

Since I realize this is a loaded question, it will be interesting to see how you respond to it.

For every doctrine, he had his interpretation of the scriptures to back it up...doesn't make it truth, just because he says so. What makes his interpretations right and everyone else's wrong? Is it easier to accept those interpretations? That is no reason to claim it as truth. Luther wasn't around until 1500's, was everyone else just in the dark until then? Is that really what Christ had planned for His Church?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I disagree. He had his own interpretations of the scriptures. He even took out books of the Bible that did not support his beliefs...

Hi. So does the Pope and the Papacy. Ask any Orthodox and it also seems to me the RCs want to switch between the Aramaic and Greek to suit there own interpretations. I could be wrong though.

Here is a thread on the translation of Matt 16:18:

Originally Posted by holdon
??? No masculine or feminine in Aramaic?

http://christianforums.com/t6871750-matt-1618-and-greek-question.html

No, if Jesus spoke in Aramaic it would be: Kepha - petros - stone. And the earliest Greek writers all have it like that. And none ever has it: I will build the church on you peter.
And so church fathers interpret that Peter is NOT the rock on which the Church is build. It is true that sometimes some of them do (mainly to suit their politics), but the fact that also sometimes they don't seals the fact that for them petros was not the massive rock...

http://www.scripture4all.org/

[Tex-Rec] Matthew 16: 18 `And I yet to thee am saying, that thou art Peter/petroV <4074>, and upon this, the rock/petra <4073> I shall be building of Me the assembly, and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing of her;

Tex-Rec NT) Matthew 16:18 kagw <2504> [AND I] de <1161> {YET} soi <4671> {TO THEE} legw <3004> (5719) { AM SAYING,} oti <3754> {THAT} su <4771> {THOU} ei <1488> (5748) {ART} petroV <4074> {PETER,} kai <2532> {AND} epi <1909> {UPON} tauth <3778> [THIS] th <3588> {THE} petra <4073> {ROCK} oikodomhsw <3618> (5692) {I WILL BUILD} mou <3450> {OF ME} thn <3588> {THE} ekklhsian <1577> {ASSEMBLY,} kai <2532> {AND} pulai <4439> {GATES} adou <86> {OF HADES} ou <3756> {NOT} katiscusousin <2729> (5692) {SHALL BE PREVAILING} authV <846> {OF IT.}

Byz./Maj.) Matthew 16:18 kagw de soi legw oti su ei petroV kai epi tauth th petra oikodomhsw mou thn ekklhsian kai pulai adou ou katiscusousin authV

W-H ) Matthew 16:18 kagw de soi legw oti su ei petroV kai epi tauth th petra oikodomhsw mou thn ekklhsian kai pulai adou ou katiscusousin authV

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I disagree. He had his own interpretations of the scriptures. He even took out books of the Bible that did not support his beliefs...

It wasn't because they didn't support his beliefs. Several scholars held that those bibles were not inspired, and that they held doctrines that were not Christian.

Really? So, it was right for him to reject books of the Bible that didn't support his beliefs?

See above.

For every doctrine, he had his interpretation of the scriptures to back it up...doesn't make it truth, just because he says so. What makes his interpretations right and everyone else's wrong? Is it easier to accept those interpretations? That is no reason to claim it as truth. Luther wasn't around until 1500's, was everyone else just in the dark until then? Is that really what Christ had planned for His Church?

Well, aside from the fact that I never said that everyone else's were wrong, I said that his were the closest to the scriptures.

But every argument you make here stands true for any one of your popes. Your popes are mere mortals who you claim has the power to make up new dogmas with no scriptural basis. Jesus said that he is the only way to heaven, yet your popes claim that the way to heaven is through submission to them.

Luther was NEVER arrogant enough to make that claim. He didn't even want the term Lutheran to be used because it wasn't about him, it was about God's love and grace for us.

That very fact is one of the main reasons I am Lutheran. Because it was never about Martin Luther or what Martin Luther did...it was always about what GOD did. And that's where the focus should be.

And yeah, I do think there were a lot of people in the dark before the reformation. The common man was not allowed to read the bible. Only priests took communion. It took a man nailing 95 thesis on a door to get the truth out. And I'm proud to be a part of that.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Hi. So does the Pope and the Papacy. Ask any Orthodox and it seems the RCs want to switch between the Aramaic and Greek to suit there own interpretations. I could be wrong though.

The difference is that the Catholics believe that their popes are granted the power to do stuff like that, acting as Christ's vicar on earth.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What makes you a Lutheran and not part of some other denomination?

That very fact is one of the main reasons I am Lutheran. Because it was never about Martin Luther or what Martin Luther did...it was always about what GOD did. And that's where the focus should be.

The difference is that the Catholics believe that their popes are granted the power to do stuff like that, acting as Christ's vicar on earth.

Then they should use the aramaic word for "rock" in Matt in all the other places where it is used, such as 1 Peter 2?

LLOJ [wonders if the RCs are still boycotting GT?]

http://christianforums.com/t6926307-call-to-boycott-gt.html

http://www.scripture4all.org/

1 Peter 2:8 and a stone/liqoV <3037> of-stumbling/skandalou <4625> and a rock/petra <4073> of snare/proskoptousin <4350> --who are being disobedient to the word --into which also they were set/placed;

Matthew 16:23 The yet turned saying to the Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan! A stumbling-block/skandalon <4625> to Me are: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things to the men".

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Almost forgot about this thread.
So what conclusion can we come to or agree on concerning who or what JESUS was pointing to concerning "this, the rock" in Matt 16?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Almost forgot about this thread.
So what conclusion can we come to or agree on concerning who or what JESUS was pointing to concerning "this, the rock" in Matt 16?

Jesus was pointing to the fact that he was Christ, and that was the rock that the church would be built on.

Not Peter.

 

[sunlover1]

Jesus was pointing to the fact that he was Christ, and that was the rock that the church would be built on.

Not Peter.

I had a dilemna today.
One of my kids asked how come he cant wear a hat
in church but all those old ladies get to.

So I grabbed the Bible and had him read 1 Cor 11
to me, then I said, DONT ask me to explain it, because
I have NO idea how it works lol. But men cant wear
a hat while prophesing or praying or it dishonors
Christ.

He says, "See, the pope IS a bad guy"

I said, HEY, dont call people bad, we have no
idea how God feels so we dont judge.

Smaller son says "Who is the pope anyhow?"
I said , well, he's the head of the Catholic church,
he wears that big tall fish looking hat"

Older son says, "Jesus is the head of the church!,
told you that popes bad"


Smaller son (11) says, Hey mom, since the pope wears
a BIG hat, is that a worse sin then those guys who
wear those little round hats "



I was at a loss for words for once.
And no, I didnt teach my kids that the pope is
bad, this was just how their minds figured things
Well, there were many more childlike comments,
but I cant remember them all.

Sure wish I knew what to tell them.
sunlover

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Smaller son (11) says, Hey mom, since the pope wears
a BIG hat, is that a worse sin then those guys who
wear those little round hats "

Inquiring minds want to know!!!!

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Sunlover, THAT is why the bible speaks of a child-like faith!!

 

[namericanboy]

I always loved these verses:
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit

PS. Nice story lover of the Son.. I wear a doo rag to church...Covers up my straggly hair and psorasis...

 

[Rick Otto]

I always loved these verses:
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit

PS. Nice story lover of the Son.. I wear a doo rag to church...Covers up my straggly hair and psorasis...

I am down wi' da struggle, brer straggly hair.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

PS. Nice story lover of the Son.. I wear a doo rag to church...Covers up my straggly hair and psorasis...

I am down wi' da struggle, brer straggly hair.

I have seen the pope a few times without a somberero on and that is usually when a wind knocks it off da head.

What is he trying hide under that.
=============
The papal mitre represents the head of Dagon with an open mouth, which is the reason for the pointed shape and split top

Note the similarity in theme of the symbol on the front of John Paul&#8217;s mitre, here a sun wheel, and that of Cybele&#8217;s mitre above, symbolic of the pagan sun god

​

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Probably what most men are trying to hide...either a bad comb-over or male pattern baldness.

I wonder if Peter suffered from that, too. (Trying desperately to keep the thread on-topic!!)

I have seen the pope a few times without a somberero on and that is usually when a wind knocks it off da head.

What is he trying hide under that.
=============

 

[sunlover1]

Inquiring minds want to know!!!!

Yeah , the one son (they're three of them all born within less than three years) was adament that the pope
is a bad guy, and I made it clear that we do not judge
his actions.
But I was wondering myself, do they wear those while
praying and prophesying?

Sunlover, THAT is why the bible speaks of a child-like faith!!

We do have some awesome discussions lol.

I always loved these verses:
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit

PS. Nice story lover of the Son.. I wear a doo rag to church...Covers up my straggly hair and psorasis...

no comb over for you huh?

Nuttin wrong with thin/balding!

My husband is balding and it bugs him a lot
so he wears this nasty camo hat.
So I always try buying him new hats LOL.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yeah , the one son (they're three of them all born within less than three years) was adament that the pope
is a bad guy, and I made it clear that we do not judge
his actions.
But I was wondering myself, do they wear those while
praying and prophesying?

Which ones? These guys or the pope and cardinals

 

[StTherese]

It wasn't because they didn't support his beliefs. Several scholars held that those bibles were not inspired, and that they held doctrines that were not Christian.

Do you have anything to back that up? What scholars specifically? and what exactly made those books un-Christian?

Well, aside from the fact that I never said that everyone else's were wrong, I said that his were the closest to the scriptures.

According to your interpretation.....
If you are a Lutheran then by default, you are saying that this is the "doctrines" that you believe to be true and therefore reject any that contradict them, no?

But every argument you make here stands true for any one of your popes. Your popes are mere mortals who you claim has the power to make up new dogmas with no scriptural basis. Jesus said that he is the only way to heaven, yet your popes claim that the way to heaven is through submission to them.

What makes Luther more right than the Pope? And actually popes do not make up new dogmas...they uphold dogmas that have been taught since the beginning. Usually the only time a "declaration" is made about a specific dogma is when there are those who are teaching false doctrines in regards to them and it is necessary to state what the Church teaches about a given subject so that we don't go around teaching heresies.
The pope makes no such claim that submission to him is the way to heaven. We submit to Christ by upholding and living out the truth that He has revealed to the Church.
Luther became his own "corrupt" pope in that he felt that his ideas about how the Church should be and what they should teach should be how he felt they should be. He was angry with certain bishops that were misrepresenting the Church and misusing doctrines. His anger lead to revenge and hatred which lead him to turn to false teachings and ideas to ease his mind so that he felt better about worshipping God. That doesn't mean what he did was right or that his conclusions were true.
If the brakes go bad on your car, do you get angry and start ripping it apart and building yourself another one taking off the car the pieces you feel are worth keeping? Or do you take it to the shop to have the brakes fixed so that your car can function as it should?

Luther was NEVER arrogant enough to make that claim. He didn't even want the term Lutheran to be used because it wasn't about him, it was about God's love and grace for us.

Well, he made himself his own pope. He decided to take it upon himself to make up his own doctrines and interpretations of the scriptures....actually the popes don't even do that...they uphold already revealed truths and pass on the interpretations, traditions, and teachings that have been passed down from the apostles.

And yeah, I do think there were a lot of people in the dark before the reformation. The common man was not allowed to read the bible. Only priests took communion. It took a man nailing 95 thesis on a door to get the truth out. And I'm proud to be a part of that.

I think someone has been feeding you a bunch of lies. At no point has the Church forbid us to read the Bible. At no point have they kept those who are in full communion with the Church from receiving communion...