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Peter Is Not The Rock!

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JacktheCatholic

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Hi Jack,
Yes, in Rev. 17 the word is porneia. Louw-Nida comments on this use of the word, as referring to apostasy, that is, spiritual adultery.

Dave


Thanks Dave.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Thanks Dave.
What is interesting is this particular greek word for Prostitutes/harlots is it is not used in the Gospels.
It is however used 2 times in the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation though. Interesting. Thoughts? :wave:

1 Corin 5:9 I write to ye in the letter not to be together-mixed to prostitutes/pornoiV <4205>

Textus Rec.) 1 Corinthians 5:9 egraya umin en th epistolh mh sunanamignusqai pornoiV

4205. pornos from pernemi (to sell; akin to the base of 4097); a (male) prostitute (as venal), i.e. (by analogy) a debauchee (libertine):--fornicator, whoremonger. [USED 10 TIMES......all outside of the Gospels]

4204. porne por'-nay feminine of 4205; a strumpet; figuratively, an idolater:--harlot, harlot.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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What is interesting is this particular greek word for Prostitutes/harlots is it is not used in the Gospels.
It is however used 2 times in the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation though. Interesting. Thoughts? :wave:

1 Corin 5:9 I write to ye in the letter not to be together-mixed to prostitutes/pornoiV <4205>

Textus Rec.) 1 Corinthians 5:9 egraya umin en th epistolh mh sunanamignusqai pornoiV

4205. pornos from pernemi (to sell; akin to the base of 4097); a (male) prostitute (as venal), i.e. (by analogy) a debauchee (libertine):--fornicator, whoremonger. [USED 10 TIMES......all outside of the Gospels]

4204. porne por'-nay feminine of 4205; a strumpet; figuratively, an idolater:--harlot, harlot.

1 Corinthians 5:9 I see it as "immoral" or Christian's doing things contrary to God's law.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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1 Corinthians 5:9 I see it as "immoral" or Christian's doing things contrary to God's law.
Greetings. I suppose that is why the Lord is telling His people to "seperate" from those of the "Prostitute"?

Revelation 17:1 And came one out of the seven messengers of the ones having the seven bowls and he speaks with me saying to me "Hither thou! I shall be showing to thee the judgement of the Prostitute/pornhV <4204>, the great, the one sitting upon the many waters

Reve 18:4 And I hear another voice out of the heaven, saying, "Come forth! the People of Me, out of Her, that no ye may not being together-communioning to the Sins of her, and out of the stripes of her that no ye may be getting". [2 Corin 6:16-18]
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Greetings. I suppose that is why the Lord is telling His people to "seperate" from those of the "Prostitute"?

Revelation 17:1 And came one out of the seven messengers of the ones having the seven bowls and he speaks with me saying to me "Hither thou! I shall be showing to thee the judgement of the Prostitute/pornhV <4204>, the great, the one sitting upon the many waters

Reve 18:4 And I hear another voice out of the heaven, saying, "Come forth! the People of Me, out of Her, that no ye may not being together-communioning to the Sins of her, and out of the stripes of her that no ye may be getting". [2 Corin 6:16-18]


I believe Paul is correcting an earlier misunderstanding by clarifying that as Christians we are going to be exposed to immoral people and things and teachings but that since we are to Evangelize and not live as hermits that we must maintain our inner purity.
 
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TraderJack

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Originally Posted by TraderJack
And exactly who would those be jack?
Those with little faith...

Those that have not been called by the Father...

Those that place themselves ahead of God...

Those that have lost their way...

Those that have rejected God...

There is more, do you want all of the ones I can think of?


Be specific jack. Those generalities are meaningless. Mormons would give the same answer, so be specific.

Or wasn't this the answer you expected? ;)

Now jack, you know I meant specifically and that I will not allow you to give some ambiguous answer.

mini-wink-glasses.gif


By the way, I have a little challenge for you coming up soon, so be on the lookout for it.
2.gif
 
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TraderJack

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Thoughts about Matthew 16:18


Catholics seem to assume that tracing their denomination to the apostles a) doesn't assume a massive burden of proof and b) somehow makes their specific denomination the "true" one.



Roman Catholics also do not apply their own theory of succession to the fact of the numerous heretics who were bishops in Rome, or the great number of times there were multiple bishops in Rome and in Avignon and elsewhere, even women bishops, all who claimed to be the "real pope".

Nor will they admit that the so called list of popes, "liber pontificalis" is a known forgery and spurious document that has been altered and altered and altered by whatever present regime had the self serving agenda to write "history" in their favor.

The RCC directs us to Matthew 16:18 as "evidence" for all this, but look at the amount of things that need to be proven:
a) The promise of Mt 16:18 has reference to "Peter."
b) The promise of Mt 16:18 has "exclusive" reference to Peter.
c) The promise of Mt 16:18 has reference to a Petrine "office."
d) This office is "perpetual"
e) Peter resided in "Rome"
f) Peter was the "bishop" of Rome
g) Peter was the "first" bishop of Rome
h) There was only "one" bishop at a time
i) Peter was not a bishop "anywhere else."
j) Peter "ordained" a successor as the Pope in Rome
k) This ceremony "transferred" his official prerogatives to a successor.
l) The succession has remained "unbroken" up to the present day.


I will be posting another challenge for the Roman Catholic illusionists to provide proof for very soon, so be on the lookout.
ok-wink.gif




An Eastern Orthodox theologian and apologist wrote the following about this....
Lets review each of these twelve separate steps:

(a) V18 may not even refer to Peter. "We can see that 'Petros' is not the "petra' on which Jesus will build his church…In accord with 7:24, which Matthew quotes here, the 'petra' consists of Jesus' teaching, i.e., the law of Christ. 'This rock' no longer poses the problem that 'this' is ill suits an address to Peter in which he is the rock. For that meaning the text would have read more naturally 'on you.' Instead, the demonstrative echoes 7:24; i.e., 'this rock' echoes 'these my words.' Only Matthew put the demonstrative with Jesus words, which the rock stood for in the following parable (7:24-27). His reusing it in 16:18 points away from Peter to those same words as the foundation of the church…Matthew's Jesus will build only on the firm bedrock of his law (cf. 5:19-20; 28:19), not on the loose stone Peter. Also, we no longer need to explain away the association of the church's foundation with Christ rather than Peter in Mt 21:42," R. Gundry, Matthew (Eerdmans 1994), 334.

(b) Is falsified by the power-sharing arrangement in Mt 18:17-18 & Jn 20:23.

(c) The conception of a Petrine office is borrowed from Roman bureaucratic categories (officium) and read back into this verse. The original promise is indexed to the person of Peter. There is no textual assertion or implication whatsoever to the effect that the promise is separable from the person of Peter.

(d) In 16:18, perpetuity is attributed to the Church, and not to a church office.

(e) There is some evidence that Peter paid a visit to Rome (cf. 1 Pet 5:13). There is some evidence that Peter also paid a visit to Corinth (cf. 1 Cor 1:12; 9:5).

(f) This commits a category mistake. An Apostle is not a bishop. Apostleship is a vocation, not an office, analogous to the prophetic calling. Or, if you prefer, it’s an extraordinary rather than ordinary office.

(g) The original Church of Rome was probably organized by Messianic Jews like Priscilla and Aquilla (cf. Acts 18:2; Rom 16:3). It wasn’t founded by Peter. Rather, it consisted of a number of house-churches (e.g. Rom 16; Hebrews) of Jewish or Gentile membership—or mixed company.

(h) NT polity was plural rather than monarchal. The Catholic claim is predicated on a strategic shift from a plurality of bishops (pastors/elders) presiding over a single (local) church—which was the NT model—to a single bishop presiding over a plurality of churches. And even after you go from (i) oligarchic to (ii) monarchal prelacy, you must then continue from monarchal prelacy to (iii) Roman primacy, from Roman primacy to (iv) papal primacy, and from papal primacy to (v) papal infallibility. So step (h) really breaks down into separate steps—none of which enjoys the slightest exegetical support.

(j) Peter also presided over the Diocese of Pontus-Bithynia (1 Pet 1:1). And according to tradition, Antioch was also a Petrine See (Apostolic Constitutions 7:46.).

(j)-(k) This suffers from at least three objections:
i) These assumptions are devoid of exegetical support. There is no internal warrant for the proposition that Peter ordained any successors.
ii) Even if he had, there is no exegetical evidence that the imposition of hands is identical with Holy Orders.
iii) Even if we went along with that identification, Popes are elected to papal office, they are not ordained to papal office. There is no separate or special sacrament of papal orders as over against priestly orders. If Peter ordained a candidate, that would just make him a pastor (or priest, if you prefer), not a Pope.

(l) This cannot be verified. What is more, events like the Great Schism falsify it in practice, if not in principle.

These are not petty objections. In order to get from Peter to the modern papacy you have to establish every exegetical and historical link in the chain. To my knowledge, I haven’t said anything here that a contemporary Catholic scholar or theologian would necessarily deny. They would simply fallback on a Newmanesque principle of dogmatic development to justify their position. But other issues aside, this admits that there is no straight-line deduction from Mt 16:18 to the papacy. What we have is, at best, a chain of possible inferences. It only takes one broken link anywhere up or down the line to destroy the argument. Moreover, only the very first link has any apparent hook in Mt 16:18. Except for (v), all the rest depend on tradition and dogma. Their traditional support is thin and equivocal while the dogmatic appeal is self-serving.
I hope that helps.


Thank you!


Pax!


- Josiah





.

Do you think that EO historian would agree with Gregory the Great when he said that any bishop who laid claim to being "universal bishop", "prince of bishops", "supreme bishop", "bishop of bishops" and all the other titles that have been used to lay claim to Roman papal supremacy, is the Antichrist?
 
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TraderJack

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Originally Posted by MamaZ
Actually according to scripture the church is the Body with only one Head. Christ. :) I thought the CC church was the mother? :confused: But then maybe not..
:) That's nothing but a way of saying that the Universal Body of Believers transmits the faith
Exactly, just as Jude says:

Jude 1:3

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Jude is explicit in calling believers to ernestly contend for the faith that had been delivered to all the saints, in it's fullness.

But Rome contends that the faith was not delivered to the saints in fullness. It has a very long list of additions invented from the medieval period to the modern era that were completely unheard of by the early church, and Rome claims is the "fullness of the truth".

Jude says otherwise. Since Jude is Inspired Scripture, that is the voice that should be heeded instead of claims coming 1000+ years later.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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JacktheCatholic

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Do you think that EO historian would agree with Gregory the Great when he said that any bishop who laid claim to being "universal bishop", "prince of bishops", "supreme bishop", "bishop of bishops" and all the other titles that have been used to lay claim to Roman papal supremacy, is the Antichrist?

Context and interpretation.

Let us examine Gregory the Great. :)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by TraderJack Do you think that EO historian would agree with Gregory the Great when he said that any bishop who laid claim to being "universal bishop", "prince of bishops", "supreme bishop", "bishop of bishops" and all the other titles that have been used to lay claim to Roman papal supremacy, is the Antichrist?
Anti-christ..........dead meat......

1 John 2:18 Little-children, last hour it-is, and according-as ye hear, that the anti-christ is coming/ercetai <2064> (5736). And now anti-christs, many, have become whence we are knowing that last hour it-is. [ercetai <2064> (5736) Reve 1:7, 9:12, 11:14].

Reve 14:7 saying in great sound: "Be being fearful! of the God, and be Ye giving! to Him glory, that came the Hour of His judging. And worship Ye! to the One-making the heaven and the land and sea and springs of waters".
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Nor will they admit that the so called list of popes, "liber pontificalis" is a known forgery and spurious document that has been altered and altered and altered by whatever present regime had the self serving agenda to write "history" in their favor.


"history" in their favor...

If Rome has been rewriting history and only the Catholic Church existed before John Calvin and other "Reformers" then please tell me what happened to the "real" Church in all those centuries?

After all we do not see a teaching of the Eucharist as symbolic only until Calvin. And if Calvinism is the Church you believe to be in line with Apostolic teachings then what happened from 100 AD until John Calvin?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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If Rome has been rewriting history and only the Catholic Church existed before John Calvin and other "Reformers" then please tell me what happened to the "real" Church in all those centuries?
Forget Calvin.....what about TYNDALE!!!! :D
 
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archierieus

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what happened to the "real" Church in all those centuries?

Hi Jack, Rev. 12 tells us that the woman (a symbol of Christ's church) fled to the wilderness where she was nourished for 1,260 yrs. This was due to the power granted the bishop of Rome to compel compliance, which became effective in 538 A.D. During this time, those who chose to remain faithful to God and His Word had to flee for their lives. They built dwellings in the mountains which may be seen to this day. As for Calvin, he was one of the Reformers. There certainly were others.

Blessings,
Dave
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Hi Jack, Rev. 12 tells us that the woman (a symbol of Christ's church) fled to the wilderness where she was nourished for 1,260 yrs. This was due to the power granted the bishop of Rome to compel compliance, which became effective in 538 A.D. During this time, those who chose to remain faithful to God and His Word had to flee for their lives. They built dwellings in the mountains which may be seen to this day. As for Calvin, he was one of the Reformers. There certainly were others.

Blessings,
Dave

Dave,

Does history record a group of Christians leaving for the mountains in 538 ad and having lived there for 1260 years with a different teaching?

Is there archeological evidence of such a group?

Not sure how John Calvin fits into that???
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Dave,

Does history record a group of Christians leaving for the mountains in 538 ad and having lived there for 1260 years with a different teaching?

Is there archeological evidence of such a group?

Not sure how John Calvin fits into that???
1260 years :confused: Where does that come from? :wave:

NEW COVENANT:

Revelation 12:1 And Sign, great was seen in the heaven a Woman having been about-cast/peri-beblhmenh <4016> (5772) the sun and the moon underneath of the feet of her

OLD COVENANT:

Reve 17:4 And the Woman was having been about-cast/peri-beblhmenh <4016> (5772) purple and scarlet and having been gilded to gold and stone, precious, and pearls,

Go Tyndale!
 
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visionary

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Dave,

Does history record a group of Christians leaving for the mountains in 538 ad and having lived there for 1260 years with a different teaching?

Is there archeological evidence of such a group?

Not sure how John Calvin fits into that???
The Waldenses
Read all about it
 
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