Peter Is Not The Rock!

archierieus · Sep 24, 2008

Photini said:
But when an interpretation of Scripture arises, what do you measure it against to verify it has been interpreted rightly?

Here is a basic principle of Bible study: "The Bible is its own interpreter." Compare Scripture with Scripture, prayerfully, claiming the promise Jesus gave in John 16, that He would send the Holy Spirit, the "Spirit of truth," to guide His people "into all truth." So study as to show yourself approved unto God, a good workman who needs not be ashamed, righly dividing the Word of truth. (2 Tim. 3 I think) The Holy Spirit will guide the sincere seeker for truth. It does work.

Dave

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 24, 2008

archierieus said:
No, Jesus did not change his name. He did give him, along with James, John and perhaps others (I need to check) a nickname, which fit his personality and stuck with him. As for 'facts,' not one fact has been presented in support of what you propose here. Never, nowhere in the Bible record, did Jesus change Simon's name. Nor is there any record whatsoever of Jesus' changing Simon's nickname. And Simon sure wasnt no saint!

That would be an interesting study as I did a study on the greek names for the chosen 7 in Acts.
Give me a few days to build a folder and study the greek on these.

Matthew 10:1 And toward-calling the twelve Disciples of Him, He gives to them authority of-spirits, unclean, so as to be casting out them and to be curing every disease and every weakness.

2 Of the yet twelve Apostles the names is these: first Simon/simwn <4613>, the one being said Peter/petroV <4074>, and Andrew/andreaV <406> the brother of him, and James/iakwboV <2385> the of the Zebede/zebedaiou <2199> and John/iwannhV <2491> the brother of him.
3 Philip/filippoV <5376> and Bartholomew/barqolomaioV <918>; Thomas/qwmaV <2381> and Matthew/matqaioV <3156> the tribute collector of the Alpheus/lebbaioV <3002>, and Thaddeous/qaddaioV <2280>
Matt 10:4 Simon/simwn <4613> the Canaanite/kananithV <2581>, and Judas/ioudaV <2455> Iscariot/iskariwthV <2469> the-one also giving-up/paradouV <3860> (5631) Him.

archierieus · Sep 24, 2008

lionroar0 said:
That's not what Scriptures's says.

Well, Scripture DOES NOT call Simon son of Jonas a saint (although Paul does call the believers in Corinth and elsewhere saints.)

Scripture DOES NOT SAY that Jesus ever changed Simon's name. Simon ALWAYS REMAINED Simon.

Scripture DOES SAY that Jesus gave Simon a nickname, Petros, on the first day He met him, recorded in Jn. 1. Jesus NEVER changed or took away that nickname. There is NO SCRIPTURAL RECORD of such an event.

Scripture DOES SAY that Jesus gave nicknames to other disciples as well, including James and John.

Dave

lionroar0 · Sep 24, 2008

Here is a basic principle of Bible study: "The Bible is its own interpreter." Compare Scripture with Scripture, prayerfully, claiming the promise Jesus gave in John 16, that He would send the Holy Spirit, the "Spirit of truth," to guide His people "into all truth.

That's not what the Scriptures say. He was speaking to the twelve Aposltes at the Last supper.

Peace

Job2 · Sep 24, 2008

Yes, you did your home work. Peter`s answer is what He is building his church on. Peter answered correctly the church is built on Jesus. That is to say The Word of God is the foundation(Jesus). Peter is a great apostle. Jesus did tell Peter that he had the keys to heaven and hell. Whatever he bound on earth would be bound in heaven, and whatever he lossed on earth would be loossed in heaven. Jesus knew that Peter could be trusted with this. It is said that certain people belive that there are people walking around today that have this power (the pope). There is no mention of a pope in the bible. This power was only given to Peter.

lokt said:
The Word of Yahuweh can't be any plainer than this.

The Savior for whom the Rock was named, asked His disciples the most important question ever posed: "Who do you say (lego - affirm and maintain, advise and teach) I Am (eimi - I exist and am present as)?" To which, a disciple named for the astuteness of his revelation, responded: "Simon (a transliteration of the Hebrew name Shimown, meaning to listen, understand, discern, regard, and proclaim) Petros (a masculine proper name meaning pebble or stone) gave the answer, The Messiah, the Son of the living God." (Matthew 16:15-16)

Affirming this live-saving truth, "Yahushua said (lego), Blessed (makarios - a poetic term denoting transcendent happiness in a life beyond labor and death) are you Shimown (the one who listens, understands, discerns, regards, and proclaims), son of (bar) Yonah (from yownah, meaning the dove; the name of a Yahudi sent to Nineveh, Assyria whose life and book serve as a prophetic metaphor for Yahushua saving Gentiles), because flesh and blood did not make this manifest (apokalupto - disclose by baring), but My Father who is in Heaven." (Matthew 16:17) As is usually true with Scripture, every name and nuance was carefully chosen, revealing subtle and profound truths.

What follows is important. Petros/Peter isnt the petra/bedrock. The recognition that "Yahushua is the Messiah, the Son of the living God," is the foundation upon which the ekklesia/called-out assembly would be restored and established. Beyond the evidence sprinkled throughout the Tanach, identifying the Rock with Yahshua, "Petros" was a man and every reference to "petra/bedrock" is feminine.

"Indeed (de), I (kago) say (logos) concerning this (hoti - as a marker of equivalence for identifying and explaining this) to you (soi), you (su) are (ei) Petros (a masculine proper noun meaning pebble or stone), and (kai) upon/by/in/with (epi - "upon" when used with things that are at rest, "by" when used in relationship to people, "with" when used in connection with authority, and "in" used in reference to an observation) this one (taute - singular feminine demonstrative pronoun) Rock (petra - bedrock, a feminine noun; a large stone which projects itself) I shall build by edifying, promoting, and restoring (oikodomeo - rebuild and establish, strengthen and enable, instruct and improve) My (mou) called out gathering (ekklesia)." (Matthew 16:18)

English translations all leave "hoti/concerning this" out of their renderings of Yahshuas answer. Had it been included, no rational person would have thought that Petros, rather than his answer, was the foundation of the ekklesia. The source of edification and restoration is the Savior, not his flawed and imperfect disciple.

Believing Peter is the Rock is irrational and delusional. The evidence of Yahuweh's Word is irrevocable/irrefutable and supercedes, trumps, pre-empts, negates, refutes, and proves to be a lie all that oppose/contradict it, whether said opposition is human or church dogma.

lionroar0 · Sep 24, 2008

archierieus said:
Well, Scripture DOES NOT call Simon son of Jonas a saint (although Paul does call the believers in Corinth and elsewhere saints.)

Scripture DOES NOT SAY that Jesus ever changed Simon's name. Simon ALWAYS REMAINED Simon.

Scripture DOES SAY that Jesus gave Simon a nickname, Petros, on the first day He met him, recorded in Jn. 1. Jesus NEVER changed or took away that nickname. There is NO SCRIPTURAL RECORD of such an event.

Scripture DOES SAY that Jesus gave nicknames to other disciples as well, including James and John.

Dave

17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, (W)Simon Barjona, because (X)flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

18"I also say to you that you are (Y)Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of (Z)Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you (AA)the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and (AB)whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

From the amplified Bible.

16Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17Then Jesus answered him, Blessed (happy, fortunate, and [d]to be envied) are you, Simon Bar-Jonah. For flesh and blood [men] have not revealed this to you, but My Father Who is in heaven. 18And I tell you, you are [e]Peter [Greek, Petros--a large piece of rock], and on this rock [Greek, petra--a [f]huge rock like Gibraltar] I will build My church, and the gates of Hades (the powers of the [g]infernal region) shall [h]not overpower it [or be strong to its detriment or hold out against it].

Jesus did not give them nick names. They were allready called sons of thunder(if I remember right), before Jesus met them.

Peace

archierieus · Sep 24, 2008

lionroar0 said:
That's not what the Scriptures say. He was speaking to the twelve Aposltes at the Last supper.

Jesus spoke those words to them after they had finished the Last Supper and had left the Upper Room. What He said to them in Jn. 14 thru 17, He also says to believers in every age. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteosness: that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly furnished unto every good work."

Dave

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 24, 2008

17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, (W)Simon Barjona, because (X)flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

18"I also say to you that you are (Y)Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of (Z)Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you (AA)the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and (AB)whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

There is no need to change the word order around in that verse and perhaps that is what is causing the problem. The predicate is before the words "the rock". I prefer translating like this to show the article "the" before the words just as it is in the greek.

Matt 16:18 `And I yet to thee am saying, that thou art Peter, and upon this/tauth <3778>, the rock/petra <4073> I shall be building of Me the 0ut-called, and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing of her;

Matthew 16:18 kagw de soi legw oti su ei petroV kai epi tauth th petra oikodomhsw mou thn ekklhsian kai pulai adou ou katiscusousin authV

Hebrew 11:2 For in this/tauth <3778> were testified to the Elders/presbuteroi 3 To Faith we are apprehending...........

archierieus · Sep 24, 2008

lionroar0 said:
17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, (W)Simon Barjona, because (X)flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

18"I also say to you that you are (Y)Peter,

Click to expand...

When did Jesus first give Simon this surname (nickname--it was not his birth name or given name)?

From the amplified Bible.
you are [e]Peter [Greek, Petros--a large piece of rock], and on this rock [Greek, petra--a [f]huge rock like Gibraltar] I will build My church,

Click to expand...

Exactly. Simon surnamed Peter remained Simon surnamed Peter. Different word, different 'rock' (rolling stone, etc.) than the "huge rock like Gibraltar") Different word, different name, different person. Christ alone is the 'huge rock like Gibraltar.') Christ DID NOT here call Simon the 'huge rock like Gibraltar.' He instead referred to Simon by his nickname, 'rolling stone.'

Jesus did not give them nick names. They were allready called sons of thunder(if I remember right), before Jesus met them.

Click to expand...

"And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder." (Mk. 3:17)

archierieus · Sep 24, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
There is no need to change the word order around in that verse and perhaps that is what is causing the problem. The predicate is before the words "the rock". I prefer translating like this to show the article "the" before the words just as it is in the greek.

Matthew 16:18 kagw de soi legw oti su ei petroV kai epi tauth th petra oikodomhsw mou thn ekklhsian kai pulai adou ou katiscusousin authV

Exactly. Using Nestle-Aland 27th (which relies on Siniaticus and Alexandrinus etc.) Compare 'su ei petros' with 'tauth th petra'

NOTE: no definite article before 'petros'

Why? BECAUSE 'PETROS" HERE IS NOT USED AS A COMMON NOUN. IT IS USED AS A PROPER NAME (NICKNAME) OTHERWISE IT WOULD BE 'TON PETRON' ALSO, 'PETROS' IS MASCULINE.

BUT: PETRA IS FEMININE! AND IT OCCURS WITH THE DEFINITE ARTICLE 'TH PETRA' AS A COMMON NOUN!!!

Grammatically, the two are NOT a match. Petros, masculine proper noun, without the article; petra, feminine common noun, WITH the article.

Dave

lionroar0 · Sep 24, 2008

archierieus said:
Jesus spoke those words to them after they had finished the Last Supper and had left the Upper Room. What He said to them in Jn. 14 thru 17, He also says to believers in every age. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteosness: that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly furnished unto every good work."

Dave

You may belief this but the fact is that He was speaking to the Apostles.

He also says to believers in every age

Where is the fact behind this belief? Where do the Scriptures say that the Holy Spirit will guide all belivers into all truth?

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteosness: that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly furnished unto every good work."

Yes the Letter to St. Timothy. Let's take a closer look.

14You, however, (AO)continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,

Seems that St.Timothy's teacher was St. Paul.

15and that (AP)from childhood you have known (AQ)the sacred writings which are able to (AR)give you the wisdom that leads to (AS)salvation through faith which is in (AT)Christ Jesus.
16(AU)All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that (AV)the man of God may be adequate, (AW)equipped for every good work.

The sacred writtings is probably the OT and maybe the two earliest gospel which are Matthew and Mark.

And all of this has to be interpreted in light of the Gospel that St. Paul taught St. Timothy by word of mouth. As the Nt was not completed.

Peace

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 24, 2008

archierieus said:
lionroar0 said:

17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, (W)Simon Barjona, because (X)flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

When did Jesus first give Simon this surname (nickname--it was not his birth name or given name)?

Exactly. Simon surnamed Peter remained Simon surnamed Peter. Different word, different 'rock' (rolling stone, etc.) than the "huge rock like Gibraltar") Different word, different name, different person. Christ alone is the 'huge rock like Gibraltar.') Christ DID NOT here call Simon the 'huge rock like Gibraltar.' He instead referred to Simon by his nickname, 'rolling stone.'
"And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder." (Mk. 3:17)

Click to expand...

Oh my goodness. Now that ya mention it...........That brings to mind those 7 Thunders in Reve. Interesting.

Mark 3:17 And James of the Zebedee and John the brother of the James and he places onto them names Boaneres which is sons of thunder/bronthV .

Reve 10:4 and when speak the seven thunders, I was about to be writing, and I hear a Voice out of the heaven saying, "Seal thou! which-things speak the seven thunders/brontai <1027> and no them thou should be writing

beamishboy · Sep 24, 2008

Job2 said:
There is no mention of a pope in the bible. This power was only given to Peter.

It's lovely when I read God's truth written out so succinctly. Although I'm Anglican, I don't accept apostolic succession. It's cooked up to protect a heresy within the church, just like an insistence that there's a body of knowledge called Oral Tradition.

Nowhere in the Bible is there any indication of apostles giving succession. Those passages which RCs point me to can so easily be distinguished because they relate so clearly to some other matters. If RCs don't believe me, raise them now - give the precise verses - and the beamishboy will give you an exposition of these verses using purely the sacred Word of God and nothing else.

All God expects is that we follow the apostolic teachings as contained in the NT. Nothing more. You don't have to be descended from Abraham or Peter or Paul or Mary (whether Magdalene or mother of Jesus). You don't have to trace by a figment of your imagination to Peter or James or John or Polycarp or Athanasias (who??? hehe).

Rick Otto · Sep 24, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
There is no need to change the word order around in that verse and perhaps that is what is causing the problem. The predicate is before the words "the rock". I prefer translating like this to show the article "the" before the words just as it is in the greek.

Matt 16:18 `And I yet to thee am saying, that thou art Peter, and upon this/tauth <3778>, the rock/petra <4073> I shall be building of Me the 0ut-called, and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing of her;

Matthew 16:18 kagw de soi legw oti su ei petroV kai epi tauth th petra oikodomhsw mou thn ekklhsian kai pulai adou ou katiscusousin authV

Hebrew 11:2 For in this/tauth <3778> were testified to the Elders/presbuteroi 3 To Faith we are apprehending...........

Just add a "hmmm?" & it sounds like Yoda.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 24, 2008

If RCs don't believe me, raise them now - give the precise verses - and the beamishboy will give you an exposition of these verses using purely the sacred Word of God and nothing else.

Perhaps thou may have better luck than me, as I and other non-RCs have been wrangling on this for about 2 yrs on this board.
Show no mercy!!!!

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 24, 2008

Rick Otto said:
Just add a "hmmm?" & it sounds like Yoda.

I still remember that part in the Empire Strikes Back movie where Yoda says "Slimy!? Mudhole!? My home this is!.

lionroar0 · Sep 24, 2008

He pronounces on the Apostle, distinguishing him by his name Simon son of John, a peculiar and personal blessing, declaring that his knowledge regarding the Divine Sonship sprang from a special revelation granted to him by the Father (cf. Matt., xi, 27). He further proceeds to recompense this confession of His Divinity by bestowing upon him a reward proper to himself: "Thou art Peter [Cepha, transliterated also Kipha] and upon this rock [Cepha] I will build my Church." The word for Peter and for rock in the original Aramaic is one and the same (N~D); this renders it evident that the various attempts to explain the term "rock" as having reference not to Peter himself but to something else are misinterpretations.

Peace

lionroar0 · Sep 24, 2008

Rick Otto said:
Just add a "hmmm?" & it sounds like Yoda.

LLOJ sound yoda likes.

Hear also I. That great wisdom in the ways of the force he has.

Peace

Annolennar · Sep 24, 2008

archierieus said:
Exactly. Simon surnamed Peter remained Simon surnamed Peter. Different word, different 'rock' (rolling stone, etc.) than the "huge rock like Gibraltar") Different word, different name, different person. Christ alone is the 'huge rock like Gibraltar.') Christ DID NOT here call Simon the 'huge rock like Gibraltar.' He instead referred to Simon by his nickname, 'rolling stone.'

Petros is simply the masculine form of the same word. Since it was being given to Simon as a proper name, that sort of makes sense. In classical languages such as Latin and Greek, this doesn't imply a distinction between the two word's meanings.

When you consider the fact that Jesus was speaking in Aramaic, and this is a Greek account of His words, its a bit like arguing about the french word "c'est" and whether it means "that's" or "that is" - there isn't any distinction in meaning, its simply a grammatical function of the translated language.

lionroar0 · Sep 24, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
archierieus said:

Oh my goodness. Now that ya mention it...........That brings to mind those 7 Thunders in Reve. Interesting.

Mark 3:17 And James of the Zebedee and John the brother of the James and he places onto them names Boaneres which is sons of thunder/bronthV .

Reve 10:4 and when speak the seven thunders, I was about to be writing, and I hear a Voice out of the heaven saying, "Seal thou! which-things speak the seven thunders/brontai <1027> and no them thou should be writing

Click to expand...

I wonder if these are the Apostles that were still alive at the time.

Peace

Peter Is Not The Rock!

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