Peter Is Not The Rock!

[beamishboy]

And yet they all claim that the Holy Spirit leads them in interpreting the Scriptures. LOL. There must be a lot of Holy Spirits out there... ...or some kind of spirits anyway

In matters that do not affect salvation, God allows for a great deal of liberty. The Protestant position has always been liberty in non-essentials, diversity in culture and unity in essentials.

The RC church is not the only denomination with unity. The Mormons, 7th Day Adventists are similarly united. So are cults which are clearly heretical such as the Jonestown suicide cult - I read that they even drank their cyanide in unison; you can't get more unified than that.

But in my opinion, unity doesn't help one bit if people are unified in heresy and error. So please stop trumpeting this unity nonsense. It's far better to conform to apostolic teachings in the essentials and where God allows for liberty, let's celebrate the diversity.

 

[beamishboy]

And yet they all claim that the Holy Spirit leads them in interpreting the Scriptures. LOL. There must be a lot of Holy Spirits out there... ...or some kind of spirits anyway

You should not show irreverence to the Holy Trinity. It's as offensive to Protestants as irreverence to Mary would be offensive to RCs. Please treat our Triune God with respect just as much as I will treat Mary and the Saints with respect. You shouldn't offend us as much as we shouldn't offend you.

 

[MamaZ]

So if all CC are in unity why do we have such a difference when we see on the news some CC for prop 8 and some vividly against it. Why do we see some charasmatic catholics and some none? Unity? We see the latin rite and we see the drift between the EO OO and RCC And the CC and all claim to be the only sovereign and only true church and the only was to Salvation..

 

[visionary]

So if all CC are in unity why do we have such a difference when we see on the news some CC for prop 8 and some vividly against it. Why do we see some charasmatic catholics and some none? Unity? We see the latin rite and we see the drift between the EO OO and RCC And the CC and all claim to be the only sovereign and only true church and the only was to Salvation..

that question should have its own thread.. it is a good one.

 

[beamishboy]

So if all CC are in unity why do we have such a difference when we see on the news some CC for prop 8 and some vividly against it. Why do we see some charasmatic catholics and some none? Unity? We see the latin rite and we see the drift between the EO OO and RCC And the CC and all claim to be the only sovereign and only true church and the only was to Salvation..

Good point! Of course they are divided. But unity doesn't mean it's a good thing because one can always be unified in heresy or error. The Jonestown cult group is one example. They were truly unified even in death. But everyone agrees they were dead wrong (no pun intended).

 

[MamaZ]

Exactly.. One can unify itself in error and still be in error.. Protestant born again belivers and one in Christ by the Holy Spirit and not by the name above the door of their assembly..

 

[narnia59]

So if all CC are in unity why do we have such a difference when we see on the news some CC for prop 8 and some vividly against it. Why do we see some charasmatic catholics and some none? Unity? We see the latin rite and we see the drift between the EO OO and RCC And the CC and all claim to be the only sovereign and only true church and the only was to Salvation..

Regardless of what individual Catholics may think or do, there is one deposit of faith and doctrine that can be clearly pointed to. This does not exist among Protestants.

Individual charisms have nothing to do with doctrine and all are respected by the Catholic church, but certainly not all individuals have all. That would not be scriptural.

I know of no apostolic church that claims to be the only way to salvation.

 

[narnia59]

Just an additional comment -- all Christians are charismatic. All possess one or more charisms, or gifts of the Spirit that are unique to the individual.

 

[beamishboy]

I know of no apostolic church that claims to be the only way to salvation.

What about the Unam Sanctam? Or was that Pope just so fallibly wrong?

 

[MamaZ]

Regardless of what individual Catholics may think or do, there is one deposit of faith and doctrine that can be clearly pointed to. This does not exist among Protestants.

Individual charisms have nothing to do with doctrine and all are respected by the Catholic church, but certainly not all individuals have all. That would not be scriptural.

I know of no apostolic church that claims to be the only way to salvation.

so it is okay for the Catholics can have division and still be in unity? But when a Protestant believer has this conflict then it brought out to slam the prostestants? I know of Catholics that do not believe in the birth control issue.. But yet that is unity?

 

[MamaZ]

I started a new thread.

 

[narnia59]

What about the Unam Sanctam? Or was that Pope just so fallibly wrong?

Not wrong at all. Have you considered the culture, context, and specific issues of the time which were being addressed, or have you opted to take one line from the deposit of faith and elevate it out of context to suit your purpose?

 

[MamaZ]

Does not matter the culture of the time.. We still see it here.. Catholics claiming sole title to the True chruch and the EO claiming the same and the OO the same.. Why is this?

 

[beamishboy]

Not wrong at all. Have you considered the culture, context, and specific issues of the time which were being addressed, or have you opted to take one line from the deposit of faith and elevate it out of context to suit your purpose?

The Unam Sanctam goes diametrically opposed to what you have just said about no apostolic church ever saying it holds the sole way to salvation. You can't have it both ways - either you made an erroneous statement or the Unam Sanctam was wrong. You can't both be right. So what if circumstances made the pope issue his papal bull called the Unam Sanctam? The circumstances can be used to excuse the Unam Sanctam as a mistake - is that what you are saying? But you cannot say it's right and you are right in what you said. You have to decide: either you were wrong or the Unam Sanctam was wrong or your statement was about apostolic churches and the RC church is not one. It's got to be one of these three.

Simonthezealot - if you are reading this, you can see for yourself that your novice has learnt a lot from the books you recommended. Hehe. Fancy "Unam Sanctam" tripping off the lips of a 13-year-old! Hehe.

 

[narnia59]

The Unam Sanctam goes diametrically opposed to what you have just said about no apostolic church ever saying it holds the sole way to salvation. You can't have it both ways - either you made an erroneous statement or the Unam Sanctam was wrong. You can't both be right. So what if circumstances made the pope issue his papal bull called the Unam Sanctam? The circumstances can be used to excuse the Unam Sanctam as a mistake - is that what you are saying? But you cannot say it's right and you are right in what you said. You have to decide: either you were wrong or the Unam Sanctam was wrong or your statement was about apostolic churches and the RC church is not one. It's got to be one of these three.

Simonthezealot - if you are reading this, you can see for yourself that your novice has learnt a lot from the books you recommended. Hehe. Fancy "Unam Sanctam" tripping off the lips of a 13-year-old! Hehe.

You are creating a false dichotomy to suit your purpose. Unam Sanctam is a document issued to address conflict with state authorities. It declares that the path to salvation is not found by being subject to the king, but rather by being a member of the body of Christ. It is specifically addressing a conflict between church and state, not a proclamation to all past, present and future Christians. This is why contextual understanding is important in all areas, not just Scripture. Similar to knowing that in order to understand one of Paul's epistles and its intent, one must understand the specific congregation it was addressed to and the issue it was addressing.

A good understanding of exactly what papal infallibility is and is not, the differences between an ex-cathedra statement by a pope, a church council, a papal encyclical would be more than helpful in developing a correct understanding as well.

I have made this correlation before, and I will make it again. Visit an atheist site and see how they isolate and twist individual scriptures to 'prove' the error in Scripture, and seek to understand how similar the tactics they use are to the one you're employing here.

 

[AmericanCatholic]

so it is okay for the Catholics can have division and still be in unity? But when a Protestant believer has this conflict then it brought out to slam the prostestants? I know of Catholics that do not believe in the birth control issue.. But yet that is unity?

The difference is that within Catholicism, disagreement on an issue such as birth control is on an individual basis, and not a dogmatic church basis. There is not a single particular church of Catholicism which dissents from that issue (or any other). Within the Protestant community, however, dispute exists on every conceivable dogmatic subject -- there is no Protestant "church". There are multiple and varied Protestant churches which have different, often conflicting, theological views.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The difference is that within Catholicism, disagreement on an issue such as birth control is on an individual basis, and not a dogmatic church basis. There is not a single particular church of Catholicism which dissents from that issue (or any other). Within the Protestant community, however, dispute exists on every conceivable dogmatic subject -- there is no Protestant "church". There are multiple and varied Protestant churches which have different, often conflicting, theological views.

Greetings AC. Thou speakest with forketh tongue.
If there are individual differences within Roman Catholicism concerning an issue, then it is conflicting, just as there is conflict between the Orthodox and RCC denominations on the Pope

Ezekiel 17:2 Son of adam, propound thou a riddle and speak thou a probverb/04912 mashal unto house of Israel:

Luke 8:10 The yet He said, "To ye it has been given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of the GOD. To-the yet rests in parables. That looking no they may be beholding, and hearing no they may be understanding".

 

[AmericanCatholic]

If there are individual differences within Roman Catholcism concernina an issue, then it is conflicting, just as there is conflict between the Ortthodox and RCC denominations on the Pope

Not necessarily -- the unity of the Church is not measured by individual conformity to doctrine (certainly, to be "Catholic" one must profess the beliefs the Catholic Church professes, but that is not the issue). The unity of the Church is measured by the communion of each particular church with each other and the Bishop of Rome. This concept is not applicable in the Protestant community where each church professes different views on every subject.

 

[Anglian]

Dear Narnia,

Thank you for your help on Unam Sanctum. Given the number of times Beamishboy and Simon have upbraided Catholics for quoting without context, it is a trifle surprising to find them doing the same thing. I guess it shows we're all fallible, unless we are the pope speaking ex cathedra - which I take it none of us is???!

Peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Not necessarily -- the unity of the Church is not measured by individual conformity to doctrine (certainly, to be "Catholic" one must profess the beliefs the Catholic Church professes, but that is not the issue). The unity of the Church is measured by the communion of each particular church with each other and the Bishop of Rome. This concept is not applicable in the Protestant community where each church professes different views on every subject.

Greetings. Paul also stresses Unity here, and concindentally, the same greek word #1106 in 1 Corin 1 is used in Reve 17 concerning those 10 "mysterious kings".

1 Corin 1:10 I am beseeching yet of ye brothers! thru the name of the Lord of us Jesus Christ that the same ye may be saying all and no may be among ye schisms/divisions ye may yet having been equipped in the same Mind and the same Purpose/Opinion/gnwmh <1106>

Reve 17:12 And the ten horns which thou saw, ten kings are, who-any a kingdom not as yet receive, but authority as kings one hour they are receiving with the beast,
13 These one purpose/gnwmhn <1106> are having, and the power and authority of them to the wild beast they are giving
17 For the God gives into the hearts of them to do the purpose/gnwmhn <1106> of Him and to do one purpose/gnwmhn <1106> and to give the kingdom of them to the wild-beast until shall be being finished [*finish] the Words [*declarations] of the God.