• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Peter Is Not The Rock!

Status
Not open for further replies.

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
SECOND: In Koine Greek (the dialect used by the authors of the New Testament), petros and petra are the masculine and feminine form of a word with the same root and the same definition—"rock." Therefore, there is no "small rock" in the Greek text either. So why did Matthew use two different words for "rock" in the same verse?
What about the word for FAITH ;) The word for "faith" is also in the Feminine

Hebrews 11:29 By Faith They crossed-thru the Red Sea as thru Dry, which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned/swallowed-down/kat-epoqhsan <2666> (5681). [Exodus 14-15/Luke 15:26]

Revelation 15:3 and They are singing the Song of-Mosheh, the bond-servant of the God, and the song of the Lamb-kin, saying, "Great and marvelous the works of Thee, Lord!, the God, the Almighty, just and true the ways of Thee, the king of the [*Ages/Saints] Nations" [Exodus 15:1-21/Hebrew 11:29]

Hebrews 11:30 by Faith the walls of Jericho did fall/epesen <4098> (5627), having been surrounded upon seven days;

Reve 18:2 and he cries in a strong voice [*great], saying, "she-falls, she-falls, Babylon the great, and She-became a habitation of demons, and a guard-house of every spirit unclean, and a guard-house of every bird unclean and hated. [Hebrew 11:30/Isaiah 21:9]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Actually I didn't realize until today that Faith was in the Feminine form

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 21:21 Answering the Jesus said to them, "Verily I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith/pistin <4102>, and no ye may be doubting,

pistin <4102>, n-Accusative Singular Feminine

Matt 16:18 `And I yet to thee am saying, that thou art Peter, and upon this/tauth <3778>, the Rock I shall be building of Me the Out-Called, and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing of her;

tauth <3778>, t_Dative Singular Feminine
petra n_Dative Singular Feminine

Textus Rec.) Matthew 16:18 kagw de soi legw oti su ei petroV kai epi tauth th petra oikodomhsw mou thn ekklhsian kai pulai adou ou katiscusousin authV
 
Upvote 0

katholikos

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2008
3,631
439
United States
✟6,027.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Here are some interesting quotes by protestants I found at:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801word.asp



ALBERT BARNES (NINETEENTH-CENTURY PRESBYTERIAN)
"The meaning of this phrase may be thus expressed: &#8216;Thou, in saying that I am the Son of God, hast called me by a name expressive of my true character. I, also, have given to thee a name expressive of your character. I have called you Peter, a rock. . . . I see that you are worthy of the name and will be a distinguished support of my religion" [Barnes&#8217; Notes on the New Testament, 170].



JOHN BROADUS ( NINETEENTH-CENTURY CALVINISTIC BAPTIST)
"As Peter means rock, the natural interpretation is that &#8216;upon this rock&#8217; means upon thee. . . . It is an even more far-fetched and harsh play upon words if we understand the rock to be Christ and a very feeble and almost unmeaning play upon words if the rock is Peter&#8217;s confession" [Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, 356].



CRAIG L. BLOMBERG ( CONTEMPORARY BAPTIST)
"The expression &#8216;this rock&#8217; almost certainly refers to Peter, following immediately after his name, just as the words following &#8216;the Christ&#8217; in verse 16 applied to Jesus. The play on words in the Greek between Peter&#8217;s name (Petros) and the word &#8216;rock&#8217; (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the Rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification" [New American Commentary: Matthew, 22:252].



J. KNOX CHAMBLIN ( CONTEMPORARY PRESBYTERIAN)
"By the words &#8216;this rock&#8217; Jesus means not himself, nor his teaching, nor God the Father, nor Peter&#8217;s confession, but Peter himself. The phrase is immediately preceded by a direct and emphatic reference to Peter. As Jesus identifies himself as the builder, the rock on which he builds is most naturally understood as someone (or something) other than Jesus himself" ["Matthew" in Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, 742].



R. T. FRANCE ( CONTEMPORARY ANGLICAN)
"The word-play, and the whole structure of the passage, demands that this verse is every bit as much Jesus&#8217; declaration about Peter as verse 16 was Peter&#8217;s declaration about Jesus. Of course it is on the basis of Peter&#8217;s confession that Jesus declares his role as the Church&#8217;s foundation, but it is to Peter, not his confession, that the rock metaphor is applied" (Gospel According to Matthew, 254).



HERMAN RIDDERBOS ( CONTEMPORARY DUTCH REFORMED)
"It is well known that the Greek word petra translated &#8216;rock&#8217; here is different from the proper name Peter. The slight difference between them has no special importance, however. The most likely explanation for the change from petros (&#8216;Peter&#8217;) to petra is that petra was the normal word for &#8216;rock.&#8217; . . . There is no good reason to think that Jesus switched from petros to petra to show that he was not speaking of the man Peter but of his confession as the foundation of the Church. The words &#8216;on this rock [petra]&#8217; indeed refer to Peter" [Bible Student&#8217;s Commentary: Matthew, 303].



DONALD HAGNER ( CONTEMPORARY EVANGELICAL)
"The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny [that Peter is the rock] in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock . . . seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Roman Catholics to justify the papacy" (Word Biblical Commentary 33b:470).
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Here are some interesting quotes by protestants I found at:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801word.asp
And that means what :D

It still hasn't done any good as far as the Jews [and Muslims] of today are concened.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263327
Early ECFs and Queen/Babylon in Revelation

Hebrews 11:30 by Faith the walls of Jericho did fall/epesen <4098> (5627), having been surrounded upon seven days;

Reve 18:2 and he cries in a strong voice [*great], saying, "she-falls, she-falls, Babylon the great, and She-became a habitation of demons, and a guard-house of every spirit unclean, and a guard-house of every bird unclean and hated. [Hebrew 11:30/Isaiah 21:9]
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Ya just gotta love Interlinears!! The last time this form of #3778 is used is in Hebrew 11:2 and LO! The word Faith is shown in vs 3 along with the Elders :idea:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 16:18 `And I yet to thee am saying, that thou art Peter, and upon this/tauth <3778>, the Rock I shall be building of Me the Out-Called, and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing of her;

Hebrew 11:2 For in this/tauth <3778> were testified to the Elders/presbuteroi 3 To Faith we are apprehending...........
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

MuidSaoirse

Newbie
Sep 11, 2008
45
7
Australia
✟22,695.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Dude, first of all, chill out. secondly, you are now claiming that for hundreds if not thousands of years we as christ followers have been reading a bible that is innacurate. also, why are you making such a big deal about Peter not being the rock? the fact of the matter is, he was. he started the catholic church wich was the foundation of christianity and it spread the message all around the world. today, catholosism is still one of the biggest religions in the world, and even though you may believe it has some wrong stuff, it still has the right message and it works for alot of people. so chill out man.

<Staff Edit>.. Nowhere does the bible state the catholic church is the sole truth... nowhere does it recommend the Pope as an authority... If you know your history our culture really know it - you will reject Catholicism as i have. Whilst i respect the renegade priests who fought for justice/liberty I reject the socio-political construct of Catholicism utterly.
It diverts focus on the truth - that being Jesus is the sole mediator and saviour.

How about also addressing the razing of cultures the Catholic church engaged in and to date the bottomless pit of sexual abuse by trusted clergy inflicted on children.. <Staff Edit>. Slan
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
No, all you did was trade the truth for a lie.
How come no response from Orthodoxs and RCs on this :hug:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 16:18 `And I yet to thee am saying, that thou art Peter, and upon this/tauth <3778>, the Rock I shall be building of Me the Out-Called, and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing of her;

Hebrew 11:2 For in this/tauth <3778> were testified to the Elders/presbuteroi 3 To Faith we are apprehending...........

tauth <3778>, t_Dative Singular Feminine
petra n_Dative Singular Feminine

pistin <4102>, n-Accusative Singular Feminine
 
Upvote 0

narnia59

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 17, 2007
5,800
1,310
✟476,540.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
How about also addressing the razing of cultures the Catholic church engaged in and to date the bottomless pit of sexual abuse by trusted clergy inflicted on children.. To uphold a construct such as Catholicism as Truth and advise ppl to chill out is ludricious. Slan
Sorry, one of my personal battles I will always wage. Sexual abuse by trusted adults inflicted on children is not a Catholic problem; it is a societal problem, and no family, church, school is immune. To believe otherwise is not only perpetuating a falsehood, more importantly it increases the risk of children everywhere. When you believe other groups have a problem and do not recognize the weeds in your own little crop of wheat you are creating an environment where perpetrators can be quite successful.

Take a look and do the math. 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clergy in the US in 57 years total. That's about 230/year.

Over the last 10-15 years, about 260/year being reported from 3 insurance companies on claims paid out against Protestant clergy. Only those with actual insurance claims filed -- not a total count of credible accusations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/16/us/16protestant.html

In addition, if you study the Catholic numbers more fully you will find not a straightline over the last 57 years, but the majority occuring in the 1950-1980 timeframe. The numbers are also dwindling every year thanks to the standard the Bishops set in 2002 charter which requires mandatory background checks and training for any adult who comes into contact with a child in any role (volunteer or staff), training for kids to teach them how to communicate if they're being abused, and outside audits to make sure the policies are enforced.

This is not a Catholic issue and for the sake of children everywhere, people should stop making it one and get on board with being part of the solution to a societal problem. At this point, the Catholic church has set the standard. For the sake of the kids, stop with the pettiness and get with the program.

*** Stepping off soap box ****
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Take a look and do the math. 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clergy in the US in 57 years total. That's about 230/year.
Ok let's get back on track with "peter". :thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

narnia59

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 17, 2007
5,800
1,310
✟476,540.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Ok let's get back on track with "peter". :thumbsup:
Sorry, in my book the abuse of children trumps everything. I am not who introduced the topic into the thread, but when it comes up I will say my peace.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Annolennar
Upvote 0

Annolennar

Exsiste Caritas Christi
May 11, 2006
409
69
✟23,388.00
Faith
Catholic
It is this pervasive notion in the Irish psyche of so many still that the Catholic church and doctrine supersedes the truth in the bible that is mindblowing...

The truth in the Bible is the same truth that the Church upholds, thank you very much. Neither supercedes the other.

Nowhere does the bible state the catholic church is the sole truth... nowhere does it recommend the Pope as an authority...

Nor does the Bible declare anywhere that its own pages contain all truth. It does, however, record the establishment of the Church and that Church's early writings.

Do you know why we even have a Bible, rather than a nebulous collection of possibly valid writings written over the course of several thousand years?

If you know your history our culture really know it - you will reject Catholicism as i have. Whilst i respect the renegade priests who fought for justice/liberty I reject the socio-political construct of Catholicism utterly.
It diverts focus on the truth - that being Jesus is the sole mediator and saviour.

Wait, so your arguement is "if you're as smart as I am, you'll think like I do"? Yeah, thats convincing. Christ is the source and summit of everything the Catholic Church stands for. I'll side with Him any day.

How about also addressing the razing of cultures the Catholic church engaged in and to date the bottomless pit of sexual abuse by trusted clergy inflicted on children.. To uphold a construct such as Catholicism as Truth and advise ppl to chill out is ludricious. Slan

Such as the fact that statistically a child is safer with a priest than with clergy of other groups, secular organizations, or even their own parents? Or maybe you're talking about the countless historical and cultural writings recorded by medieval monks that otherwise would be lost?

Or perhaps you're talking about something else, but I fail to see how actions from anyone, good or bad, have any bearing on Truth anyway. God is Truth, and His reality doesn't change based on what any human does.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Nor does the Bible declare anywhere that its own pages contain all truth. It does, however, record the establishment of the Church and that Church's early writings.

Do you know why we even have a Bible, rather than a nebulous collection of possibly valid writings written over the course of several thousand years?
Greetings. The topic of the thread isn't about having the Bible, but interpreting it.
Can we please keep this on Peter of which the RCC claims its supremacy is from. Thanks. :wave:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 16:18 `And I yet to thee am saying, that thou art Peter, and upon this/tauth <3778>, the Rock I shall be building of Me the Out-Called, and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing of her;

Hebrew 11:2 For in this/tauth <3778> were testified to the Elders/presbuteroi 3 To Faith we are apprehending...........

tauth <3778>, pd_Dative Singular Feminine
petra n_Dative Singular Feminine

pistin <4102>, n-Accusative Singular Feminine
 
Upvote 0

Annolennar

Exsiste Caritas Christi
May 11, 2006
409
69
✟23,388.00
Faith
Catholic
Greetings. The topic of the thread isn't about having the Bible, but interpreting it.
Can we please keep this on Peter of which the RCC claims its supremacy is from. Thanks. :wave:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 16:18 `And I yet to thee am saying, that thou art Peter, and upon this/tauth <3778>, the Rock I shall be building of Me the Out-Called, and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing of her;

Hebrew 11:2 For in this/tauth <3778> were testified to the Elders/presbuteroi 3 To Faith we are apprehending...........

tauth <3778>, pd_Dative Singular Feminine
petra n_Dative Singular Feminine

pistin <4102>, n-Accusative Singular Feminine

Sounds good to me, I'm all for keeping ungrounded attacks out. :)
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Sounds good to me, I'm all for keeping ungrounded attacks out. :)
Greetings. In my view, peter is more of a RC engima concerning the Pope and Papacy.
In fact, the Pope is the MAIN reason the Orthodox and RCs do not see eye to eye on some things.

I am SOLO SCRIPTURA, so I will not see eye to eye with either one of them on a lot of things :D

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6050583&page=14
What would it take for catholics to convert to Orthodox Church?

http://www.christiantruth.com/mt16.html

The Church Fathers' Interpretation of the Rock of Matthew 16:18​
An Historical Refutation of the Claims of Roman Catholicism
 
Upvote 0

narnia59

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 17, 2007
5,800
1,310
✟476,540.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Take a look and do the math. 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clergy in the US in 57 years total. That's about 230/year.

Ok let's get back on track with "peter". :thumbsup:
LLOJ, I am curious. Why is the above the only thing you opted to quote from my post? Why choose one line out of the middle of the post that ignores all context around it? Why choose to only highlight the stats on Catholic clergy and ignore those of Protestant clergy?
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Take a look and do the math. 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clergy in the US in 57 years total. That's about 230/year.

LLOJ, I am curious. Why is the above the only thing you opted to quote from my post? Why choose one line out of the middle of the post that ignores all context around it? Why choose to only highlight the stats on Catholic clergy and ignore those of Protestant clergy?
Why is it that you seperate CHRIST-ians into Protestants/Orthodox and Roman Catholic :confused:

Matt 23:15 "Woe to ye scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! that ye are going-about the Sea and the Dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638), ye are making him a son of geennhV <1067> twofold-more of-ye. [Haggai 2:6/Luke 23:31]

Reve 6:16 And they are saying to the Mountains and to the rocks: 'Be falling on us! and hide us! from Face of the One sitting upon the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb-kin" [Hosea 10:8/Luke 23:30]
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
A question with a question?

Acts 18:15 But if it be a question of words and names, and of your law, look ye to it, for I will be no judge of such matters.
That question wasn't directed at you but thks for yer input. ;)

John 18:31 Saying then to them, the Pilate, "be taking Him ye-selves and according to the Law of ye judge ye Him". "Said then to him the Judeans, "to us not is permitted to be killing no-one";

Reve 12:10 And I hear great voice saying in the Heaven: "Now became the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him, that was cast the Accuser of the brothers of us, the accusing them in sight of the God of us day and night.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.