Peter Is Not The Rock!

[LittleLambofJesus]

I see the Peter threads are coming back to the front again

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Not a process or event. It is just knowing you are a sinner and that Christ died for you. Then being a good tree good fruit will follow.

Sorry Charlie: Incorrect.

The Bible says I am saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but it also says I am being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and that I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Salvation is an ongoing process.

So, like the apostle Paul, we are working out our salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

 

[Zoness]

Apastolic succession etc is nothing more than a man made concept that bears no resemblance to the early church.

Quoted just because I agree, not like it really matters anyways. I'm not an apostle...are you? No. So it's not our problem

 

[JacksLadder]

Sorry Charlie: Incorrect.

The Bible says I am saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but it also says I am being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and that I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Salvation is an ongoing process.

So, like the apostle Paul, we are working out our salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

Matthew
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

You cannot save yourself only God can choose to save you.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Apastolic succession etc is nothing more than a man made concept that bears no resemblance to the early church.

The first Christians had no doubts about how to determine which was the true Church and which doctrines the true teachings of Christ. The test was simple: Just trace the apostolic succession of the claimants.

Apostolic succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles. All over the world, all Catholic bishops are part of a lineage that goes back to the time of the apostles, something that is impossible in Protestant denominations (most of which do not even claim to have bishops).

The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the Bible. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.

The Church Fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, regularly appealed to apostolic succession as a test for whether Catholics or heretics had correct doctrine. This was necessary because heretics simply put their own interpretations, even bizarre ones, on Scripture. Clearly, something other than Scripture had to be used as an ultimate test of doctrine in these cases.

Thus the early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes, "[W]here in practice was [the] apostolic testimony or tradition to be found? . . . The most obvious answer was that the apostles had committed it orally to the Church, where it had been handed down from generation to generation. . . . Unlike the alleged secret tradition of the Gnostics, it was entirely public and open, having been entrusted by the apostles to their successors, and by these in turn to those who followed them, and was visible in the Church for all who cared to look for it" (Early Christian Doctrines, 37).

For the early Fathers, "the identity of the oral tradition with the original revelation is guaranteed by the unbroken succession of bishops in the great sees going back lineally to the apostles. . . . [A]n additional safeguard is supplied by the Holy Spirit, for the message committed was to the Church, and the Church is the home of the Spirit. Indeed, the Church’s bishops are . . . Spirit-endowed men who have been vouchsafed ‘an infallible charism of truth’" (ibid.).

Thus on the basis of experience the Fathers could be "profoundly convinced of the futility of arguing with heretics merely on the basis of Scripture. The skill and success with which they twisted its plain meaning made it impossible to reach any decisive conclusion in that field" (ibid., 41).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The first Christians had no doubts about how to determine which was the true Church and which doctrines the true teachings of Christ. The test was simple: Just trace the apostolic succession of the claimants.

You would make a fine Orthodox......Our doors are always open for you dear friend. COME OUT OF HER!!!

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Sorry Charlie: Incorrect.

The Bible says I am saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but it also says I am being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and that I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Salvation is an ongoing process.

So, like the apostle Paul, we are working out our salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

Matthew
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

You cannot save yourself only God can choose to save you.

Did I say otherwise?
I thinketh not

 

[JacksLadder]

Also on faith.

Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

Mark 5:34
He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering."

Luke 5:20
When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."

Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then he said to him, "Rise and go; your faith has made you well."

Luke 18:42
Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you."

Acts 20:21
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Romans 3:22
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Romans 4:9
Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:13
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Romans 14:2
One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

You would make a fine Orthodox......Our doors are always open for you dear friend.

Hey, you know what? Our Church allows us to receive communion in an Orthodox Church, but my understanding is that the Orthodox won't allow us to. Is that right? What's up with that?

COME OUT OF HER!!!

Is that the old LLoJ?

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Also on faith.

For a "seeker" you seem to have all the answers.

 

[JacksLadder]

Did I say otherwise?
I thinketh not

Just making sure

 

[Zoness]

The first Christians had no doubts about how to determine which was the true Church and which doctrines the true teachings of Christ. The test was simple: Just trace the apostolic succession of the claimants.

Apostolic succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles. All over the world, all Catholic bishops are part of a lineage that goes back to the time of the apostles, something that is impossible in Protestant denominations (most of which do not even claim to have bishops).

The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the Bible. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.

The Church Fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, regularly appealed to apostolic succession as a test for whether Catholics or heretics had correct doctrine. This was necessary because heretics simply put their own interpretations, even bizarre ones, on Scripture. Clearly, something other than Scripture had to be used as an ultimate test of doctrine in these cases.

Thus the early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes, "[W]here in practice was [the] apostolic testimony or tradition to be found? . . . The most obvious answer was that the apostles had committed it orally to the Church, where it had been handed down from generation to generation. . . . Unlike the alleged secret tradition of the Gnostics, it was entirely public and open, having been entrusted by the apostles to their successors, and by these in turn to those who followed them, and was visible in the Church for all who cared to look for it" (Early Christian Doctrines, 37).

For the early Fathers, "the identity of the oral tradition with the original revelation is guaranteed by the unbroken succession of bishops in the great sees going back lineally to the apostles. . . . [A]n additional safeguard is supplied by the Holy Spirit, for the message committed was to the Church, and the Church is the home of the Spirit. Indeed, the Church’s bishops are . . . Spirit-endowed men who have been vouchsafed ‘an infallible charism of truth’" (ibid.).

Thus on the basis of experience the Fathers could be "profoundly convinced of the futility of arguing with heretics merely on the basis of Scripture. The skill and success with which they twisted its plain meaning made it impossible to reach any decisive conclusion in that field" (ibid., 41).

I guess I don't really understand how this preserves doctrine. The linage isn't physical or literal it is just assumed that you will teach true doctrine if you become a bishop, which is my understanding of it. But there have been many heretical bishops throughout time too so it's either an imperfect model or irrelevant. Regardless, it doesn't affect me either way I am just trying to understand the concept more. Hard to believe I was raised in Catholicism

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hey, you know what? Our Church allows us to receive communion in an Orthodox Church, but my understanding is that the Orthodox won't allow us to. Is that right? What's up with that?

Is that the old LLoJ?

Don't make me put those verses in my siggy. Remember, I helped ya'll out with the SDA's

 

[JacksLadder]

For a "seeker" you seem to have all the answers.

I like to learn by debating. It helps me keep from being taken in to one camp or another. Hence the semi-Calvinist label. I also like to see answers from different sects and how they word them. To be honest I really know nothing whatsoever. Just that this God/Human named Jesus died on a cross for me.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

I guess I don't really understand how this preserves doctrine. The linage isn't physical or literal it is just assumed that you will teach true doctrine if you become a bishop, which is my understanding of it. But there have been many heretical bishops throughout time too so it's either an imperfect model or irrelevant.

Fair observation. If you read Matt 18:18, you'll see that the authority to bind and loose was given to the apostles as a group. And it was as a group, in Acts, when they made their first binding decision regarding circumcision.

This is what we still believe to this day. It is only a world-wide council of bishops that can teach infallibly. Individual bishops cannot, with the exception of the pope. And THAT is reflected in Matt 16:17-19.

Regardless, it doesn't affect me either way I am just trying to understand the concept more. Hard to believe I was raised in Catholicism

Try some of these:
Catholic Answers: Library: Church & Papacy
Catholic Answers: Library: Scripture & Tradition

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Zoness Regardless, it doesn't affect me either way I am just trying to understand the concept more. Hard to believe I was raised in Catholicism

I know what ya mean. I was born and raised into it so I didn't have much of a choice.

 

[visionary]

You always have a choice.. you may not like the reactions from your fellow man, but then neither did Yeshua, but He did the right thing anyway.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You always have a choice.. you may not like the reactions from your fellow man, but then neither did Yeshua, but He did the right thing anyway.

Yep.
Btw, how do the Messianics view Peter compared to the RCs and non-RCs.
Would you say he was more important to the OC Jewsthan to the non-Jews? Just curious

 

[Rick Otto]

You always have a choice.. you may not like the reactions from your fellow man, but then neither did Yeshua, but He did the right thing anyway.

This "semi-Calvinist" agrees.
I'm "full-Calvinist" on soteriology, but I part ways with him on sacramentology & ecclesiology, especialy in the area of church discipline.

Why offend someone with style when you can do it with substance?

 

[tadoflamb]

This "semi-Calvinist" agrees.
I'm "full-Calvinist" on soteriology, but I part ways with him on sacramentology & ecclesiology, especialy in the area of church discipline.

Sounds like you got your fill at the buffet!