Peter and the Keys, Catholicism and the Pope

[Albion]

Pope St. Linus

(Reigned about A.D. 64 or 67 to 76 or 79).

There does appear to have been a Linus who, although not consecrated a bishop in Apostolic Succession, was asked by the townsmen of Rome to come there and be their bishop. He wasn't a Pope, however, since no one had any concept of a Pope at that time.

 

[sunlover1]

Is everyone who still talking to Newman 6 pages after he left trying to convince him or themselves?

Racer stops by infrequently and then answers posts from pages before.

One can't understand our Bible we wrote unless your part of those who wrote it.

Huh?
You mean God's Bible?

All your doing is disagreeing with the authors.

God?

Or did I just mean something else entirely?

Hope so.

 

[Albion]

I think they prefer that you use "The Church" when referring to their ...

Ah yes! I forgot about that. Probably it will be the next demand after "denomination" is somehow settled. Then it will be another and another until we are permitted only to quote the Catechism in reply to any post.

 

[JoabAnias]

Nice revision.

The Chair of Peter has not been 'invented'...it always was and will be.
The keys didnt just take a hiatus until someone felt like putting someone in Rome...

Again, read the early writers speak of Rome.
The city itself was not the authority or the teacher - it was the Pope...[Patriarch] OF the city of Rome.

Peter ordained Clement when Clement was young, but Linus [spoken of in the Gospel] was the one to succeed Peter immediately ..Clement had not yet been given the See.

BUT when he was Pope - he was the one directly to answer the East who traveled to find his counsel.

Polycarp was speaking at the council before his martyrdom, and it was not about Rome the Church but Rome the secular city.
Polycarp interests me...
CHURCH FATHERS: Martyrdom of Polycarp

Sister your love is impressive.

Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My assembly, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against her.

Mat 16:19 And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven. And whatever you bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven. And whatever you may loose on the earth shall be, having been loosed in Heaven.

Rom 16:17 And brothers I exhort you to watch those making divisions and causes of stumbling contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and turn away from them

I Cor. 13, 1-3: Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels . . and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains . . . and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing

Matt. 7-21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Hence the futility of saying, "I am a Christian", unless one earnestly strives to serve God. I'd say thats pretty hard to do with a divorced praxis. Thanks be to God we have the Praxis Jesus created.

James 2, 22-26: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works and by works was faith made perfect? etc.... so faith without works is dead also.

Eph. 4-3 to 5-3: Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4. There is one body and one Spirit even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. 5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, etc.

Titus 3-10: A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject.

Gal. 1-8: But though we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal. 1-9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which ye have received let him be accursed.

Rom. 16-17: Now I beseech you brethren mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

2 John 10: If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.

 

[JoabAnias]

Ah yes! I forgot about that. Probably it will be the next demand after "denomination" is somehow settled. Then it will be another and another until we are permitted only to quote the Catechism in reply to any post.

I don't care what you do.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears."

According to the World Christian Encyclopedia and other sources, there are 73 different organizations of Methodists, 55 kinds of Baptists, 10 branches of Presbyterians, 17 organizations of Mennonites, 128 of Lutherans and thousands of other denominations.

Rom. 16-17: Now I beseech you brethren mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Gal. 1-8: But though we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal. 1-9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which ye have received let him be accursed.

Its your choice.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I don't care what you do.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears."

According to the World Christian Encyclopedia and other sources, there are 73 different organizations of Methodists, 55 kinds of Baptists, 10 branches of Presbyterians, 17 organizations of Mennonites, 128 of Lutherans and thousands of other denominations.

Rom. 16-17: Now I beseech you brethren mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Gal. 1-8: But though we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal. 1-9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which ye have received let him be accursed.

Its your choice.

First Corinthians 12:9 says "To another faith by the same Spirit." The Bible clearly says that all Christians are a body of believers indwelt by the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13). Romans 8:9 says, "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, He is none of His." What, exactly, are we basing our relationship with God and our eternal future? Is it based on our denominational tradition? I cannot say a particular Church/denomination's theology is truth because the Bible is truth while doctrines are taught by man.

There are millions of professing Christians who "think" they have been justified, who think their sins are forgiven and that they are on their way to heaven, who show no evidence of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Many Christians are unthinkably horrified when a real sinner is suddenly discovered among the righteous. So we remain alone with our sin, living in lies and hypocrisy. In summary, I am saying that the Holy Spirit gave me assurance of my faith and doctrines I follow.

 

[Albion]

Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My assembly, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against her.

Peter is to "build,"i.e. add to, the church of Christ. He did this at Pentecost thanks to a miracle that did not accompany the other Apostles' evangelizing efforts. Christ's church will never be destroyed (but it is not guaranteed to never make a mistake by that verse).

Mat 16:19 And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven. And whatever you bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven. And whatever you may loose on the earth shall be, having been loosed in Heaven.

Peter was permitted to forgive sins. Other verses teach that the other Apostles could also.

Rom 16:17 And brothers I exhort you to watch those making divisions and causes of stumbling contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and turn away from them

The early church saw groups collected around Peter, others were devoted to James, John, or another Apostle. Paul saw this and false doctrines as a mistake. Obviously.

I Cor. 13, 1-3: Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels . . and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains . . . and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing

A real faith produces a changed lifestyle. If one claims to have faith but acts as if he's a Heathen, it's not a saving faith.

James 2, 22-26: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works and by works was faith made perfect? etc.... so faith without works is dead also.

The faith produces works, says James. If there are none, it's a faith in name only.

Eph. 4-3 to 5-3: Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4. There is one body and one Spirit even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. 5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, etc.

This is what is otherwise termed "the invisible church," i.e. not the visibly local ekklesia but the whole body of believers known only to God and wherever they may be found

Titus 3-10: A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject.

Gal. 1-8: But though we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal. 1-9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which ye have received let him be accursed.

Rom. 16-17: Now I beseech you brethren mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

2 John 10: If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.

Yes, we all agree that it is important to be true to the Gospel and not depart from it into some other sect.

You found these verses; I thought you might also be interested in what they mean.

 

[Albion]

I don't care what you do.

that's good to know. But some in your denomination do see it differently, you know. That's the problem. There is no real answer since every individual sees it differently.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears."

I'd put the rise of the Papacy at about AD 400, if that's the historical application you are thinking of.

According to the World Christian Encyclopedia and other sources, there are 73 different organizations of Methodists, 55 kinds of Baptists, 10 branches of Presbyterians, 17 organizations of Mennonites, 128 of Lutherans and thousands of other denominations.

And there are over 300 Roman Catholic churches. So, what was your point again?

Rom. 16-17: Now I beseech you brethren mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Gal. 1-8: But though we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal. 1-9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which ye have received let him be accursed.

Its your choice.

As most people know, I've already chosen to follow the faith of the Apostles. How 'bout yourself? After all, the verse you print out says not to preach another "GOSPEL." That means to preach according to the Word of God, not manmade legends, traditions, etc. and the theological speculations of mere men. That's basically what all the above verses are getting at.

Thanks.

 

[JoabAnias]

Racer stops by infrequently and then answers posts from pages before.

Riiiight.

Huh?
You mean God's Bible?

Nope I mean my/THE Churches. We wrote it, we are the authors. We know what it means. We preserve its meaning, not profane it.

God?

Exactly. Its a blasphemy to profane what my Bible means. It offends Jesus.

Hope so.

I would hope so too if I was in such a position.

The ideal:

John 17-21: That they may be one, as thou Father, art in me and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that (as a consequence) the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.

(What it means to really care to witness for Jesus).

I would be hoping for this:

John 10-16: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Because if thats not the case we could wind up with this:

Matt. 7-21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

And everything else my Bible points to like:

Mark 16-16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The guidance of the Holy Spirit, Whom Christ promised to His Church (John 14:16 and 26).

Our Lord's own presence in the Church, according to His specific promise. (Matt. 28:20, John 6)

Of course, I believe has this all been said before so there is only one alternative left:

Titus 3-10: A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject.

Gal. 1-8: But though we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal. 1-9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which ye have received let him be accursed.

Rom. 16-17: Now I beseech you brethren mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

2 John 10: If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.

= Obedience to God.

 

[JoabAnias]

that's good to know. But some in your denomination do see it differently, you know. That's the problem. There is no real answer since every individual sees it differently.

I don't care what they think either. Unless they have some authority from God.

I'd put the rise of the Papacy at about AD 400, if that's the historical application you are thinking of.

Probably according to your view. Thats fine with me. Like I said, I don't care what you believe.

And there are over 300 Roman Catholic churches. So, what was your point again?

Lol. Doesn't matter what "claims" are made. I know there is one Church Jesus created and I am positive I am in it. It doesn't matter to me if you believe me or not. Jesus still loves you, and it matters to you but thats between Him and you now isn't it?

As most people know, I've already chosen to follow the faith of the Apostles. How 'bout yourself? After all, the verse you print out says not to preach another "GOSPEL." That means to preach according to the Word of God, not manmade legends, traditions, etc. and the theological speculations of mere men. That's basically what all the above verses are getting at.

Tell that to Jesus when you meet him.

I hope He knows us all. But I think He tells us He wont know those who don't follow His commands. All the best with that for us all.

Rom. 16-17: Now I beseech you brethren mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

 

[Albion]

Nope I mean my/THE Churches. We wrote it, we are the authors. We know what it means. We preserve its meaning, not profane it.

I'd say that kind of talk profanes it big time, but you probably can't see that for the effect of the blinders. All you forgot to add is "we are God."

The ideal:

John 17-21: That they may be one

Now, there you go! It's the "Ideal." Preaching sectarianism, as I'm reading in your posts, is the opposite of that, isn't it?

 

[NewMan99]

Dear NewMan99


CF Admin Tonks, former high Catholic staffer and now Orthodox, in his announcement about the return of the Nicene Creed as the definition of "Christian," posted this:

Why should I care in the least what Tonks says or how CF defines a word? It won't be the first time I disagreed with Tonks.

And I recall a thread in OBOB at the time where the overwhelming consensus was in strong opposition to this word being applied to us. So it isn't just me - not by a longshot.

NewMan, you were soooooooooooo offended, insulted, disgusted by my use of the word "denomination" (defined by me very positively) in reference to The Catholic Church that you went on a rant for days - and finally left the discussion here.

You still lack the ability to LISTEN to what others say. Seriously, you need to get better at that. I was not offended by your use of it. I was offended by your continued application of it to my Church even after I asked you to stop. And I did not leave the discussion here because of your use of "denomination" - I left it for people miniminizing and rationalizing why the word "Romish" is supposedly not really a slur and not a word that Catholics have a right to find offensive.

It's a religious slur, you argued, a violation of the rules of CF, the equal of posting the "n" word, unbearably insulting and disgusting to Catholics and so offensive that you were compelled to not discuss your witnesses to The Catholic Papacy but to leave because the word "denomination" had been used in this thread. STRONG public personal rebukes were directed at me because of that word.

BALONEY. I compared the word "Romish" to the "n" word because they are BOTH SLURS. Just because one is religious and the other is racial does not make it not a slur. I did not compare the word denomination to a slur. I am FAR MORE bothered by the "Romish" discussion in this thread than I am with the "denomination" definition. I did not compare "denomination" to the "n" word.

I assume you are equally insulted, disgusted and offended by the Admin Tonks and will be posting the same things about slurs, insults and the "n" word to Tonks in that thread as you did to me here.

Good grief. Context, CJ, context. I am NOT happy about Catholicism being categorized as a denomination here at CF. Most Catholics object to it. But if I asked Tonks if he would refrain from applying it to my Church in the context of a personal dialog between the two of us and he continued to intentionally use it knowing that it would irritate me...THEN I would be upset with him. There's a difference here. That's my beef with you CJ. It was because you constantly imposed your definition on my terms when I was speaking of my own Church, and thereby made my words appear to be different than what I actually said - and then you argued against that. That's when I got upset with you. You did this over and over and over. I objected to you doing this several times. Finally I had to word my requests to you using stronger language because you just ignored it the first several times I used language that was more tame. The imposition of your definitions on my terms caused a huge communication problem because we were talking past each other. Obviously you still don't get it and I don't think you have any intention of trying to understand it.

 

[JoabAnias]

First

Did your mom ever teach to speak when spoken to?

Oh good one.

The First commandment is very important.

Thats a good reason why my Bible can't be changed right there.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I hope He knows us all. But I think He tells us He wont know those who don't follow His commands. All the best with that for us all.

Rom. 16-17: Now I beseech you brethren mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

We can fake other people regarding "our faith" but we can't fake to God. It is important to understand that our hearts are the state of our "flesh". We can learn from others who believe such doctrines and examine our own. We are to allow the Holy Spirit to lead us and convict us the truth. Often flesh's desires gets in the way of spirit-lead truth. 1 Timothy 1:5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

 

[Albion]

I don't care what they think either. Unless they have some authority from God.

So...we should just use whatever words we think appropriate. Is that your point?

Probably according to your view.

How perceptive of you, considering that I WROTE that I'd put it at about that date. I know that others have placed the beginning of the Papacy at the mid 400s or the late 300s.

Like I said, I don't care what you believe.

Apparently you must, or else you wouldn't be so anxious to tell me about it over and over again.

Lol. Doesn't matter what "claims" are made. I know there is one Church Jesus created and I am positive I am in it.

Well, we're all in it, Socrates. That's been covered many times on these forums.

Tell that to Jesus when you meet him.

I hear that the Toastmasters clubs do a great job of getting people over those awkward "What'll I say now?" moments..

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

One can't understand our Bible we wrote unless your part of those who wrote it.

We are all a part of those that penned it: from Moses through John (albeit in many cases, we don't know who the penmen were). They were believers, and thus a part of the mystical union of believers - just as you and I are. Now, if you are trying to argue that the RCC wrote the Bible: that's another discussion for another day and thread (one I'd love to participate in).

All your doing is disagreeing with the authors

The Author is God, and I see nothing in this thread that is documented as a disagreement with God. Nor has anything been presented from Scripture about the Papacy. Our friend and brother NewMan99 spoke of Matthew 16:18 but admitted it doesn't get us very far. Our friend and sister WarriorAngel directed us to Isaiah but consistently has not answered any questions about how it relates to the Papacy or where Isaiah "said" what she specificly states he wrote. If you have Scriptures that state that Jesus created the Office of the Catholic Papacy in or before 30 AD and that all since Peter have been understood as being the infallible, supreme, powerful authority in unique possession of the Keys of Peter by virtue of being the bishop of a particular diocese - the one of Rome, then please quote those Scriptures. Such would be a significant contribution to our discussion.

Is everyone who still talking to Newman 6 pages after he left trying to convince him or themselves?

... He's online right here in this thread at this very moment, as he has been.





.

.

 

[JoabAnias]

We can fake other people regarding "our faith" but we can't fake to God. It is important to understand that our hearts are the state of our "flesh". We can learn from others who believe such doctrines and examine our own. We are to allow the Holy Spirit to lead us and convict us the truth. Often flesh's desires gets in the way of spirit-lead truth. 1 Timothy 1:5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Hey I like that post. I might keep talking to you.

 

[Standing Up]

No.

THE only reason Jesus obtained the keys was because He became human. These are human keys....for earth and authority.
Notice it didnt say He would already have the keys in Isaias... because He had to become human, and doing so He took the keys in humanity and handed them back to His new Authority on earth.

Keys of the kingdom of heaven is what it says in Mt.

Revelation 3

6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. 7 And to the angel of the church of Philadelphia, write: These things saith the Holy One and the true one, he that hath the key of David; he that openeth, and no man shutteth; shutteth, and no man openeth: 8 I know thy works. Behold, I have given before thee a door opened, which no man can shut: because thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will bring of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie. Behold, I will make them to come and adore before thy feet. And they shall know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of the temptation, which shall come upon the whole world to try them that dwell upon the earth.

IF you really slowly read this, Jesus is speaking [for one thing] and then He tells us it is the ONE whom HE gave the keys to...whom He loves.
AND when the whole world is being tested - only this one will remain faithful to Him.
BECAUSE as He promised in the beginning to KEEP the gates of hell from prevailing - again HE says He will keep him from the hour of temptation [the end of the world] which be upon the whole world.

AGAIN - it is the Chair of Peter who can open and shut - and no one else...
And it will be that Chair that remains faithful - in the last days.

[Are we in those days?]

Yes. The falling away prophesied in Thes. has happened. But, unless one knows the truth, the falling away can't be known.

Nice revision.

The Chair of Peter has not been 'invented'...it always was and will be.
The keys didnt just take a hiatus until someone felt like putting someone in Rome...
Again, read the early writers speak of Rome.
The city itself was not the authority or the teacher - it was the Pope...[Patriarch] OF the city of Rome.

Do you understand that the Roman Church brought forward the terms and types of the OT? BUT, change of priesthood, change of Law. Christ is of Melchizedek out from tribe of Judah.

Clement was Jewish most likely. I agree with you, I understand what you're saying; but, disagree as to its meaning. Clement used the example of Aaron's rod blooming to assert Levitical (Church of Rome) authority. History tells us that the Palestinian Synod was the first to ADOPT the Roman usage of their understanding of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

As I told NewMan99, ONLY ROME saw it one way. By 325 all the Churches submitted to Rome Church. THey declared the Apostles John, Phillip, and the others heretical. 341 they excommunicated them. Is that not clear? Anyone????

Peter ordained Clement when Clement was young, but Linus [spoken of in the Gospel] was the one to succeed Peter immediately ..Clement had not yet been given the See.

Now that's revisionism .

The Church of Rome conceded the Eucharist to Polycarp. This was their way of submitting to the true apostolic line.

 

[Albion]

We can fake other people regarding "our faith" but we can't fake to God.

Right you are!

That's what I was pointing out that James is teaching in his epistle. We cannot get by with an alleged faith. James didn't mean that faith is not what saves, just that it must be the genuine article.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Did your mom ever teach to speak when spoken to?

Oh good one.

The First commandment is very important.

Thats a good reason why my Bible can't be changed right there.

"If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." The condition of the heart determines how receptive a person is to God's commandments. Without Christ, we are nothing. Along with love and under the control of the Holy Spirit, the power of love and Holy Spirit flows through us. The only way the spiritual gifts are going to operate is love. Love is the key. God is love. He gave us two commandments. We are to love God and others. With the Holy Spirit and love, I will walk in the Spirit, Christ produces the fruit.

Sarcasm's aim is to belittle someone, and to laugh at their expense as "cutting" with it. Ephesians 5:4 "Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving." Sarcasm humor may not be funny to the victim but its funny to those who understand the barb as it feeds their intellectual egos. Sarcasm is scornful, contemptuous and taunting. Proverbs 21:24 The proud and arrogant man-"Mocker" is his name; he behaves with overweening pride. One of devil's beatitudes is "Blessed are they who mock." Some say the motivation for sarcasm is retaliation. Some say the motivation for sarcasm is pride.