Pesach...something to think about

GregConstantine said:

I know all4Christ, I'm making a specific point by asking him that. See the other responses in this tread.

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Ah yea, makes sense.

I think Greg is right (obviously).

I could say, "ask ot Vyacheslav or pr Jean". The titles are correct in their own languages but are confusing for English-only speakers. Again, it is, however unintentional, disrespect to people who do NOT understand other languages to deliberately use them in their presence, when the English term would not, and would COMMUNICATE - get the idea across, not only to the multicultural listeners, but to the monocultural ones as well. That's what I've been trying to communicate. Not sure if the point has gotten across or not.

"When in Rome do as the Romans do." It's basic folk wisdom. I love knowing other languages, believe me! I wouldn't give up what I have learned in an adult life abroad. But it has to be founded in respect for whatever environment you are in. People who DON'T know what "Av" means (I do, but so what?) are going to feel like those that do are engaging in secret society handshake stuff right to their faces, and rightly so.

If I EVER go to Israel, you can bet I will turn all my guns to learning Hebrew as fast as I can. Even if EVERYBODY there speaks English, I have no right to assume that they do, or that they will naturally understand everything I say. It is just like the arrogant American abroad, telling people in their own lands "Speak English!".

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

We do celebrate some of them. Passover = Pascha. Shavuot= Pentecost...they are direct fulfillments, even calculated in the same way. HaBikkurim (firstfruits)=Pascha (the firstfruits of them that slept). Shavuot...Pentecost, counting the Omer of 50 days. This is not Judaizing...it is fully understanding our roots in Judaism...these feasts did not appear out of the blue to Orthodoxy!

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That's my point...that the Orthodox feast days of these fulfill the Jewish version.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Not all Jews are or were "Christ denying" now where they?

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There really is no contradiction when you're both Jewish and a Christian - and being Jewish myself (on great-grandfather's side through his mom), it is a bit problematic whenever anyone makes a false scenario saying one is either Orthodox Christian or somehow a "Christ-denying Jew" - as if you stop being a Jew when you become a Christian when that is no more logical than one saying "You're either an Orthodox Christian or a Christ denying Iroquois!" (if coming from Native American culture). You still remain Native American even when you become Orthodox (even though not all aspects of your culture are embraced if they are against the Lord - whereas others are neutral and you use them) - and it's the same with being Jewish. Plenty of folks (including Fr. James Bernstein) have noted how one is both a Jew and a Christian and there is no contradiction except by those not understanding what it means to be Jewish to begin with...

As Fr. James Bernstein noted best:

I am Jew by birth. Our family roots are in Jerusalem, near the Mount of Olives, where my four grandparents are buried.

My father, Isaac, was born in the old, walled city of Jerusalem. He received his rabbinical certificate from the venerable chief rabbi of Jerusalem, Rabbi Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld. My father, however, was not a rabbi for long. World War II and its slaughter of millions of Jews contributed to his loss of faith.

My parents had no choice as to whom they would marry, for while they were still children their marriage had been arranged by their parents. This was the tradition-the way that it had been for thousands of years among the ultra-Orthodox Jews. I’m not complaining though-they produced me!

....As a Jewish-Christian, I became convinced I would be at home in the Orthodox Church. The Church provides worship of God that is biblically based. She has a sacrifice on earth reflecting that which is offered in heaven. She has clear continuity of history going back to Christ and the Apostles, and is the original Church of the Holy Land. Orthodox Christianity respects divine mystery and does not press for false clarity. And she provides both an ascetic and festive ideal, being at the same time sensitive to our human frailty. Most of all, I found the Orthodox Church was in continuity with the ancient Jewish-Christian Church.

On Christmas Eve, 1981, I was received into the Orthodox Christian Church. My wife, Bonnie, and our four children-Heather, Holly, Peter, and Mary-also became Orthodox. Subsequently, I’ve been to seminary and have been ordained an Orthodox priest.

I extended to my Jewish-Christian brethren an earnest invitation. Come, visit the Orthodox Church. Spend a month of Sundays with us. Experience the worship, the mystery, the majesty, the centrality of the Messiah which springs from the pages of the New Testament and is rooted in the Old. Discover the Jewish-Christian Church that our Lord Jesus established, into which people from every nation, tongue, and tribe have come, and become truly Orthodox!
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I agree with what he said and more was shared on the issue before (as seen here and here and here). That said, the language issue is one that has really been covered before if my memory serves correct (as seen here, seeing that people speak in the vernacular they are used to or based on their ethnic background - and since you're Jewish, you speak from that basis). Thus, it really is not a problem anymore than others speaking Greek and people. As noted elsewhere, Hebrew in the Church concerning language may be unconventional for some - but it's not foreign to Orthodoxy when familar with the whole of what happens in the Orthodox world. Other Orthodox have said "Yeshua" (be priest or laity) in interaction/Divine Liturgy just as others preferring Spanish over English (be it Hispanics or Gentiles who grew up speaking both English and Spanish) grew up appreciating saying the name of the Lord in that language ....or in Arabic (if from there) or in Greek and others (more shared in #124).

Gxg (G²) said:

There really is no contradiction when you're both Jewish and a Christian - and being Jewish myself (on great-grandfather's side through his mom), it is a bit problematic whenever anyone makes a false scenario saying one is either Orthodox Christian or somehow a "Christ-denying Jew" - as if you stop being a Jew when you become a Christian when that is no more logical than one saying "You're either an Orthodox Christian or a Christ denying Iroquois!" (if coming from Native American culture). You still remain Native American even when you become Orthodox (even though not all aspects of your culture are embraced if they are against the Lord - whereas others are neutral and you use them) - and it's the same with being Jewish. Plenty of folks (including Fr. James Bernstein) have noted how one is both a Jew and a Christian and there is no contradiction except by those not understanding what it means to be Jewish to begin with... As Fr. James Bernstein noted best: I am Jew by birth. Our family roots are in Jerusalem, near the Mount of Olives, where my four grandparents are buried. My father, Isaac, was born in the old, walled city of Jerusalem. He received his rabbinical certificate from the venerable chief rabbi of Jerusalem, Rabbi Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld. My father, however, was not a rabbi for long. World War II and its slaughter of millions of Jews contributed to his loss of faith. My parents had no choice as to whom they would marry, for while they were still children their marriage had been arranged by their parents. This was the tradition-the way that it had been for thousands of years among the ultra-Orthodox Jews. I’m not complaining though-they produced me! ....As a Jewish-Christian, I became convinced I would be at home in the Orthodox Church. The Church provides worship of God that is biblically based. She has a sacrifice on earth reflecting that which is offered in heaven. She has clear continuity of history going back to Christ and the Apostles, and is the original Church of the Holy Land. Orthodox Christianity respects divine mystery and does not press for false clarity. And she provides both an ascetic and festive ideal, being at the same time sensitive to our human frailty. Most of all, I found the Orthodox Church was in continuity with the ancient Jewish-Christian Church. On Christmas Eve, 1981, I was received into the Orthodox Christian Church. My wife, Bonnie, and our four children-Heather, Holly, Peter, and Mary-also became Orthodox. Subsequently, I’ve been to seminary and have been ordained an Orthodox priest. I extended to my Jewish-Christian brethren an earnest invitation. Come, visit the Orthodox Church. Spend a month of Sundays with us. Experience the worship, the mystery, the majesty, the centrality of the Messiah which springs from the pages of the New Testament and is rooted in the Old. Discover the Jewish-Christian Church that our Lord Jesus established, into which people from every nation, tongue, and tribe have come, and become truly Orthodox! That said, the language issue is one that has really been covered before if my memory serves correct (seeing that people speak in the vernacular they are used to or based on their ethnic background - and since you're Jewish, you speak from that basis). Thus, it really is not a problem anymore than others speaking Greek and people

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My feelings exactly.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

We do celebrate some of them. Passover = Pascha. Shavuot= Pentecost...they are direct fulfillments, even calculated in the same way. HaBikkurim (firstfruits)=Pascha (the firstfruits of them that slept). Shavuot...Pentecost, counting the Omer of 50 days. This is not Judaizing...it is fully understanding our roots in Judaism...these feasts did not appear out of the blue to Orthodoxy!

All4Christ said:

That's my point...that the Orthodox feast days of these fulfill the Jewish version.

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Some of this was discussed more in-depth in another discussion called Happy Hanukkah (as seen in #115 ) on the way that traditional Feast Days which the Apostles celebrated had differing meanings than they did before after Christ rose - and as the Church developed its Liturgical calender, new feast days were made for differing reasons.

As said there, s we know, every believer in that early time (at least, every Jewish believer) kept BOTH the Biblical Sabbath AND a first-day celebration. ...and this was all a part of development occurring.



And we see this even further in the Calender Year development. For the Jewish Christians (concerning the Seven Feasts of Israel ), there were three pilgrimage feasts:

• Passover
• Pesach
• Massot
• First Fruits
• Pentecost – Shavuot
• Feast of Tabernacles – Sukkot

And other important feasts, but not every possible feast, were the following:

• Rosh Ha-Shanah – New Year Festival
• Yom Kippur – Day of Atonement
• First Fruits - Beginning of the Harvest
• Chag HaMatzot - Festival of Unleavened Bread
• Hanukkah – Feast of Lights or Feast of the Dedication of the Temple, commemorating events in the Book of Maccabees
• Purim – Feast of Lots, commemorating the events of the Book of Esther

Those things all took on a different level of practice when Christ came - people no longer made sacrifices of Atonement on Yom Kippur because Christ was our Atonement - although the day became one they remembered the Lord's deliverance. And Sukkot became a time of remembering how the Lord tabernacle with us just as they set up booths in the wilderness. First Fruits became a time of remembering how Christ was the First Fruits of the Resurrection - with it being the case that it so happened to occur on Sunday anyhow.....and during Pentecost (giving even more dimensions to where the Holidays all POINTED to Christ throughout the OT and into the NT).


The feasts - and the entire Old Testament - are fulfilled in Christ (Luke 24:26). And we should teach about how the Old Testament feasts were fulfilled in the New Testament. For the Feasts and laws of the Lord were a tutor (Galatians 3:24) to lead the Israelites to the Savior - The apostle Paul described the Hebrew calendar as a "mere shadow" of what was to come (Colossians 2:16-17) ...with the Apostle not condemning those Jewish Christians who wished to continue celebrating the Jewish holidays since others were exalting those things in/of themselves as if they could bring salvation - and Paul's focus was on asserting that the festivals lead to Christ in what they pointed to.

And this is why the Early Church had no issue either discussing that directly during the times of those feasts occurring - or wishing good will during those times since they had the perspective of Christ (as the Book of Hebrews points out in-depth).

Christmas has been fulfilled, but we still celebrate that - and Easter has been fulfilled and yet it's still celebrated - for the fulfillment in the acts of Jesus should only serve to EMPHASIZE the purposes underlying those feasts, not obviate the necessity of them in what can be learned - and this is why the Jewish Christians had no issues participating in them with new lenses and applications.

This was not a battle, however, for Gentile believers. In a development fully and completely parallel to the development of the various Jewish feast days, the great Christian feast days created harmonized with the Jewish feasts in one great detail.....for they demonstrate the deliverance of God, but through Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Whereas what the Jewish Christians had grown up with in the Biblical Feasts was focused on celebrating God’s deliverance in great historical events, the new feasts were developed to celebrate God’s deliverance in both the life of Our Lord Jesus Christ and in the lives of the Theotokos, Our Lady, as well as other figures important to New Testament salvation history such as the Forerunner, St. John the Baptist.

This innovation was a demonstration of how the Christian liturgical year follows the same philosophical underpinning as the Jewish liturgical year, even though they were both oriented around the Messiah from different perspectives/emphasis.

And St. Paul clearly gave permission for the Gentile Christians to not have to follow the Jewish calendar. It is the case that St John and his school, at least until the 2nd Century, were being more “Jewish” in their observance. What changed many thigns was that in the second century, a council of Rabbis declared a Jewish General to be the Messiah and he led a revolt against Rome.

Although the Christians found themselves on both Sides in this war, split between Jewish Christians and their Gentile compatriots and Christians trapped in the Roman Army, both groups of Christians could agree that Bar Kochba was not the Messiah. But afterward, Christian support of Jewish claims suddenly vanished - commemorated in the 19th benediction against traitors, still said in the synagogue liturgy.....and from that moment forward the idea of doing anything on the Jewish pattern was no longer really a viable option within the now-largely Gentile Christian community.

But the Gentiles continued to develop their own festivals and ideas at this point (a blessing from the Lord) - but the Jewish Christians never ceased in also valuing what the Lord gave.

And this goes back to the example of Polycarp - who honored the Apostle John he studied under and followed his tradition when it came to celebrating on the Passover since that was of high importance.

i think the early history of all these feasts and how they fulfill the OT feasts is quite interesting. we don't have to be flee from our Jewish heritage, but rather can rejoice in how the Lord worked through the Jewish nation.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

I understand your point, however my post was specifically to Laura. FR Alexander calls himself Av and so do I so I didn't really think it would be a problem

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Thanks, Yeshua.
Please note here that I am speaking only to the language issue and am saying nothing about "judaizing". I understand that the priest may call himself that. I live in Russia, and every priest is referred to as "ot(y)ets so-and-so". But in speaking to an English audince, it is rude to assume they all recognize the Russian word "ot'ets". So I say "Fr So-and-so". The vital thing in international etiquette is speaking the language your audince understands. That's all I'm trying to communicate here.

I do understand why some have concerns about judaizing, as they do about latinization and apostasy in general. I think using Hebrew instead of English conventions exacerbates the perception. I'm willing to assume that you simply love the expression of Orthodoxy in Hebrew, and only think that you ought to tone that down a bit in dealing with us goyim. It might really reduce the sense that you may have mistakenly been accused of. Insisting on using foreign forms is only likely to increase that sense.

All4Christ said:

My feelings exactly.

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Cool we're on the same page

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

"Discover the Jewish-Christian Church that our Lord Jesus established, into which people from every nation, tongue, and tribe have come, and become truly Orthodox!"

AMEIN!

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Indeed

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Laura, you may want to contact Av Aleksandr. He celebrates in Hebrew.

Hebrew Liturgies Resound in Jerusalem

https://www.facebook.com/av.aleksandr?ref=pymk

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Fr. Alexander is such a blessing - and what's interesting, of course, is that he also has English speakers in the audience he communicates with when it comes to the use of Hebrew...although they know there are others speaking Hebrew in the crowd so they have no issue with both Hebrew/English present. Of course, I've seen the same thing when speaking to others from differing cultures - as going to Coptic Orthodox services where Egyptian is spoken as well as Arabic in the service doesn't mean that other English-speaking members take issue since English is said as well...and the goal is reaching out to as many as possible. I listen to how others speak and those going between Arabic and English don't bother me - no more than it'd be for others using Greek or French phrases with others in that culture online and then going to English (since the online world is truly diverse and not everyone speaks exactly the same).

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:

I gotcha Father (otets) or elder (Staretz), right? How about Batushka?

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"Batyushka" would be used as a form of address by itself, not referring to the given name of the priest, in informal situations, including directly addressing the priest.