Perversion

[k]

I agree with knightlight; going by the definition of perversion as abnormality, homosexuality clearly would fit - it's a minority position. From what I see, you're not using it as any sort of moral statement, correct?

Homosexuality has been around as long as humans, and more people engage in it than are willing to admit. Therefore, it is not abnormal.

 

[sparklecat]

Homosexuality has been around as long as humans, and more people engage in it than are willing to admit. Therefore, it is not abnormal.

It's a minority position. That makes it not normal.

 

[k]

It's a minority position. That makes it not normal.

Considering the fact we have no way of knowing how many people are gay/bi-sexual and how much or how little homosexual activity occurs, it seems we cannot say for sure one way or the other.

 

[sparklecat]

Considering the fact we have no way of knowing how many people are gay/bi-sexual and how much or how little homosexual activity occurs, it seems we cannot say for sure one way or the other.

What's wrong with the usual method of polling?

 

[k]

What's wrong with the usual method of polling?

I've known quite a few people who could not even admit it to themselves.

 

[JGG]

I'm not sure if this has been said, but literally taken from Latin, "perversion" means "an act (-ion) of turning (vers-) thoroughly (per-)."

Just food for thought on how we tend to change the meanings of words.

 

[knightlight72]

Who writes dictionaries? It is the group w/ the most power. They don't just fall out of the Objective Sky.

I'm not sure if you're saying dictionaries have the incorrect definition for a word or not.

If you're saying it's incorrect, then quite frankly, I'm not sure how you can fault me for using any definition I feel like using.

If you're not saying the dictionary is incorrect, then I have missed your point.

 

[knightlight72]

Considering the fact we have no way of knowing how many people are gay/bi-sexual and how much or how little homosexual activity occurs, it seems we cannot say for sure one way or the other.

Consider context here was about it being a minority, are you suggesting that homosexuality is around 50% or higher?


Even using the highest estimates has never come remotely close to that number.

 

[k]

I'm not sure if you're saying dictionaries have the incorrect definition for a word or not.

If you're saying it's incorrect, then quite frankly, I'm not sure how you can fault me for using any definition I feel like using.

If you're not saying the dictionary is incorrect, then I have missed your point.

I'm saying dictionaries are neither correct nor incorrect. They are written on two basic criteria: by those who are in power and the usage of words in a culture. I.e. Ever see the movie "Malcolm X" starring D. Washington?

 

[k]

Consider context here was about it being a minority, are you suggesting that homosexuality is around 50% or higher?


Even using the highest estimates has never come remotely close to that number.

African-Americans are a minority in the US ~ are they a "perversion?" The point here is even IF something is in the minority that is not sufficient evidence to prove it is a perversion.

 

[knightlight72]

I'm saying dictionaries are neither correct nor incorrect. They are written on two basic criteria: by those who are in power and the usage of words in a culture. I.e. Ever see the movie "Malcolm X" starring D. Washington?

No, haven't seen the movie.

I'd have say that considering that the dictionary isn't valuable here in your mind, I don't see any issue to the word perversion being used in this case. Why disagree with it being used at all if in your mind it doesn't truly matter.

 

[knightlight72]

African-Americans are a minority in the US ~ are they a "perversion?" The point here is even IF something is in the minority that is not sufficient evidence to prove it is a perversion.

You're correct, minority alone is not suffiecient to classify something as perversion.

Being black is a minority race, but the issue isn't about skin color. This isn't the nazi party or anything making up dictionaries.

Remember that perverions has to do with an act, or sexual act that is not considered the norm. Skin color is not an act, nor sexual.

 

[k]

No, haven't seen the movie.

I'd have say that considering that the dictionary isn't valuable here in your mind, I don't see any issue to the word perversion being used in this case. Why disagree with it being used at all if in your mind it doesn't truly matter.

The dictionary has to be taken w/ a grain of salt...I'm not saying it's useless.

If you get a chance, watch it because it's a GREAT film. Plus, there is one scene concerning a dictionary and it illuminates how pervasive the effects are.

 

[k]

You're correct, minority alone is not suffiecient to classify something as perversion.

Being black is a minority race, but the issue isn't about skin color. This isn't the nazi party or anything making up dictionaries.

Remember that perverions has to do with an act, or sexual act that is not considered the norm. Skin color is not an act, nor sexual.

I don't want to digress onto racial scenes so I should not have brought it up.

Let's say the "missionary" position was the norm for 1000 years and then suddenly some started using a different one, does that mean they were perverts?

 

[knightlight72]

I don't want to digress onto racial scenes so I should not have brought it up.

Let's say the "missionary" position was the norm for 1000 years and then suddenly some started using a different one, does that mean they were perverts?

Correct, that would fit the definition.

 

[k]

Correct, that would fit the definition.

Ahhh....now I understand...we're approaching it from two different angles.....you're seeing the word from a logical positivists' position and I'm looking at it's meaning and use from a speech act light.

 

[knightlight72]

Ahhh....now I understand...we're approaching it from two different angles.....you're seeing the word from a logical positivists' position and I'm looking at it's meaning and use from a speech act light.

logical positivist? I would say logical positivist seems a stretch. Straight logic, nothing positive or negative. I don't think I understand why we have two different meanings for the word," my meaning" and "your meaning". I was using the dictionary right from the start. That's why I referenced the dictionary in so many posts.

Quick question, how does the word mean something different to you.

Is your definition mean something different than what is written in the dictinary?

 

[TexasSky]

I understand that a lot of research went into the OP, and I'm impressed, however, it is also a lot of circular talking.

The definition of perversion as aberrant behavior is the best definition.

Aberrant means deviates from "normal".

Normal is something that conforms to/with or constitutes a norm or standard or level or type or social norm. It is "not abnormal."

Norm is a standard or model or pattern regarded as "typical."

The "normal" current middle class family has 2 children.

Ergo, since it IS abnormal for the majority of society to engage with sex with children, pedophilia is abnormal, and because it is abnormal it is perverted.

That was an easy line to define. Pedophilia is not accepted by society, ergo it is not a "norm."

Other things are much more difficult to define. No one knows who participates in what sexual practices in the privacy of their homes if you are talking about things like positions, devices, etc. They assume certain things are "abnormal" and "perverted" if they don't practice those things, but they really don't know if that is true or not. If you cannot point to "normal", you cannot point to abnormal.

Homosexuality is not the norm for American Society, and therefore, technically, does fit the definition of perverted. However, I'm sure that most people, even those who disagree with homosexuality, would admit it doesn't belong in the same category as pedophilia.

So in such debates, it is best to ask the person you are debating with to move the conversation out of the realm of generalities and to address specifically the ethical or moral issues of the discussion - becuase technically - - if they call it perverted they are correct. It is NOT representative of the norm of society.

 

[k]

logical positivist? I would say logical positivist seems a stretch. Straight logic, nothing positive or negative. I don't think I understand why we have two different meanings for the word," my meaning" and "your meaning". I was using the dictionary right from the start. That's why I referenced the dictionary in so many posts.

Quick question, how does the word mean something different to you.

Is your definition mean something different than what is written in the dictinary?

Meaning and use are 2 different things. The dictionary def offers a rather amoral position, it denotes something that is simply not normal. So, if I make a glass of chocolate milk, and slice some bananas into it, I have, by definition, perverted chocolate milk. However, we all know that is not how "perverted" is used, and my moral character would not be attacked.

It is used to denigrate people on the moral barometer, and that is the issue.

 

[knightlight72]

Meaning and use are 2 different things. The dictionary def offers a rather amoral position, it denotes something that is simply not normal. So, if I make a glass of chocolate milk, and slice some bananas into it, I have, by definition, perverted chocolate milk. However, we all know that is not how "perverted" is used, and my moral character would not be attacked.

It is used to denigrate people on the moral barometer, and that is the issue.

Respectfully, I said this several days ago, but basically you're saying that you want an additional definition.

You must realize that it doesn't matter how many words are changed or used, the reason people may make a statement towards a moral stance will not change just because the word has an additional meaning.

To the point....Most people do not feel homosexuality is immoral due to the definition of perversion. I think you're equating word use ensuring the way people will look at it.

Remember a few years back when Queer was spoken as insulting, and now queer is used in trendy slogans and titles. Changing the term is not the issue.