Personification and Trinity

[Kalkas]

Hello,

I have a question about the use of the term 'personification' and its application to the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

In literature the term 'personification' is used as a figure of speech in which human characteristics are attributed to an abstract quality, animal, or inanimate object.

However, can the term 'personification' be used to refer to some form of embodiment of either a thing/process or an abstract concept as a person, where such embodiment is not understood in a metaphorical manner, but rather in a metaphysical sense? For instance, goddess Venus is goddess of love because she is a personification of love.

If the second usage is not improper, can the Son, the 2nd person of Godhead be regarded as the personification of God's thoughts/words?

According to the Bible, God's thoughts/words have a tremendous creative vitality, i.e. God has a power to create the worlds by His words (Gen 1). If so, God's thoughts/words are filled with tremendous and vital Life such that they can even sustain themselves independently, to form their own Personhood known as the Word (John 1:1). Can this be thought of as a personification? By such idea of personification, the Word is eternal because God's words/thoughts are eternal. The Word is also integral (unseperated) Person of God's Being.

Thoughts are the identity of the existence. I think therefore I am. God's thoughts are eternal in the virtue of His eternal beingness. Therefore, the Word is eternal too, "the same was in the beginning with God (John 1:2)."

Similar consideration could be applied to the 3rd person of the Holy Spirit, where the Holy Spirit is regarded as the personification of God's powers/forces.

Would the above application of the term 'personification' be in harmony with the classical trinitarian doctrines as taught by Church Fathers?

Best regards,
Aleksandar

 

[Simonline]

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[Clifford B]

Kalkas,
What if the word of God is just the word of God in truth? God spoke (his word) and we have creation.
Adam disobeyed his word, and death entered the world. Jesus obeyed his word and restored everlasting life to mankind. But since Jesus ONLY did the word of God, he was thus "the word" by what he did. He was God manifest to the world, by what he did in obedience. God is spirit. His word is spirit.

Jesus is the word of God in action.
Is there anything about this that is not scriptural?

 

[Simonline]

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[Simonline]

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[BrendanMark]

What you describe as 'personification' is more properly 'anthropomorphism' (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anthropomorphism). As for the logos being the 'personification' of God's word . . . well, I prefer the language and conceptions of Incarnation over a mere 'personification' if I understand you correctly.

. . . in keeping with his whole argument to this point, for Paul the work of Christ is an objective, historical reality. At God’s own set time, Christ entered our human history (born of a woman) within the context of God’s own people (born under the law) so as to free the people from Torah observance by giving them “adoption as ‘sons.’”
. . .
Paul’s emphasis here, in passing though it seems to be, is on the incarnation of Christ, who thereby stands in contrast to the ahistorical, atemporal “elemental spirits of the universe” (v 3) to which these former pagans had been subject.
Fee, Gordon – Pauline Christology [Hendrickson, 2007, p. 509-510]

 

[Terral]

Hi Kalkas:

I have a question about the use of the term 'personification' and its application to the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

There is no Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek term translated ‘personification’ or ‘personify’ in God’s Living Word. NASB. The term nearest your description is a ‘type’ (typos #5179) as a ‘form’ (definition #3) or an ‘example’ (definition #4).

In literature the term 'personification' is used as a figure of speech in which human characteristics are attributed to an abstract quality, animal, or inanimate object.

A reading of the definitions for ‘personification’ (thefreedictionary.com) will reveal that Jesus Christ is the ‘personification’ of God’s Living Word on many levels. God also uses Old Testament principals to ‘personify’ our Lord Jesus Christ like when Abraham (type of God) forced Isaac to carry the wood to his own sacrifice (Gen. 22:6) like Christ carried His own cross to fulfill that type in the New Testament. God personifies various ‘heavenly things’ (Heb. 8:5) in the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple (diagram) in earthly copies and shadows and ‘according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.’ The ‘Tabernacle of David’ (Acts 15:16-18 = pic) for example is an earthly ‘copy/pattern’ of the heavenly ‘True Tabernacle’ (Heb. 8:1-2) where Christ takes His seat to begin the 1000 Year Day of the Lord (pic = in blue), but ONLY if you have eyes from God to see.

However, can the term 'personification' be used to refer to some form of embodiment of either a thing/process or an abstract concept as a person, where such embodiment is not understood in a metaphorical manner, but rather in a metaphysical sense? For instance, goddess Venus is goddess of love because she is a personification of love.

Your query appears to be leading these readers off in the direction of idolatry and you are wise to pay careful attention to the Lord’s commands to Israel, saying,

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is IN HEAVEN above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.” Exodus 20:4.

Click on the Blue Letter Bible link for Exodus 20:4 to realize the term “idol” (pecel #6459) and “likeness” (temuwnah #8544) fit your descriptions of a ‘personification’ (likeness, representation, semblance), but with a definite ‘sin’ attached to the equation. The commandment says, “You SHALL NOT make for yourself an IDOL, or ANY LIKENESS of what is IN HEAVEN above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.” Therefore, casting yourself ‘an idol’ or a ‘likeness’ of “My Father who is IN HEAVEN” to worship as ‘deity’ is against the very First Commandment issued by the Lord God Himself. The question above might read, “Can men use a key Bible Principal (My Father who is IN HEAVEN) to personify the “Only True God” (John 17:3) and violate the First Commandment?” The answer is a definite Yes! Of course, every idolater strutting around on the earth believes that ‘his idol’ personifies deity and even when the Lord God’s commands are violated every step of the way.

If the second usage is not improper, can the Son, the 2nd person of Godhead be regarded as the personification of God's thoughts/words?

You are assuming that ‘the Son’ is the Second Person of the Godhead, when the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (pic) are the three witnesses of “The Word” (John 1:1-3) made flesh (John 1:14) and sent into the world to save sinners. John 3:16-18. You are using the three witnesses of the “Son of God” (F+S+HS = under red arrow) for fashioning and idol and a likeness of something very much IN HEAVEN (John 6:51, Acts 1:11) to worship as your deity, when God’s Three Witnesses are testifying over in Revelation 1:8 (diagram) in the Persons of “God To Come” (spirit witness = Prophet), “God Who Is” (blood witness = King) and “God Who Was” (water witness = Priest/Intercessor/Helper). God’s Three Witnesses are working over in Genesis 1, while the Son’s three witnesses are working on this seventh day over in Genesis 2:4+. “My Father who is IN HEAVEN” is the ‘spirit witness’ of ‘The Word’ and the “Son” is the ‘blood witness’ or soul of the same “The Word” personified by our Lord Jesus Christ. The “Holy Spirit” is the ‘water witness’ Helper or the third Person of the Trinity personifying the “Son of the Living God” (Matt. 16:15-17) like “God Who Was” personifies “The Almighty” who raised Christ (F+S+HS) from the dead (Rom. 10:9) on the third day (1Cor. 15:3-4). Those among you replacing the Three Witnesses of the Only True God for the three witnesses of The Word/Son are guilty of fashioning an ‘idol’ and ‘likeness’ of God’s Deity from something (Word/Son) very much IN HEAVEN right this moment as we speak.

According to the Bible, God's thoughts/words have a tremendous creative vitality, i.e. God has a power to create the worlds by His words (Gen 1). If so, God's thoughts/words are filled with tremendous and vital Life such that they can even sustain themselves independently, to form their own Personhood known as the Word (John 1:1). Can this be thought of as a personification?

Absolutely! This is the very reason that men on the earth have every opportunity to fashion their idol and likeness of something in HEAVEN (F+S+HS) in the first place, even though all three witnesses (F+S+HS) of “The Word” have already been seen (Jn 14:8-11, Jn 1:34, John 1:32 respectively) and “NO ONE has seen GOD at ANY TIME . . .”. John 1:18. Scripture teaches through David and Solomon that heaven (Gen. 1:8) and the highest heaven (Gen. 1:1) CANNOT CONTAIN GOD (1Kings 8:27), but idolatrous men continue to fashion idols from the “Son of God” (F+S+HS) to ‘personify’ the “Only True God” of the same cotton picking verse:

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the Only True God [GTC, GWI, GWW], and Jesus Christ [F+S+HS] whom You have sent.” John 17:3.

The “Only True God” is the same “God” who raised our Lord Jesus Christ (Son of God) from the dead (Rom. 10:9), but people transform “The Word/Son” into their version of ‘deity’ every day without knowing the difference.

By such idea of personification, the Word is eternal because God's words/thoughts are eternal. The Word is also integral (unseperated) Person of God's Being.

The Word (F+S+HS) and the “Only True God” (GTC, GWI, GWW) are “ONE” and the same thing in God’s Infinite Realm (far left and very top), but God sent The Word into this universe to save sinners and is “with God” as early as John 1:2 for ‘all things’ to be called into existence IN Him in John 1:3 (Col. 1:16-17*). Your ‘personification’ aspect comes into play in Colossians 1:15* where the Word/Son is the IMAGE of the Invisible God that No One has seen at ANY TIME. John 1:18. Ask yourself why people worship the IMAGE (F+S+HS = The Word/Son) in the place of the “Only True God” who raised Him from the dead and perhaps you will wake up to ‘the truth’ (John 5:31-33) that Jesus Christ is the “Son of the Living God” making intercession for the saints from the “right hand of God.” Romans 8:34, Colossians 3:1-3. The Word is the integral Person of The Son’s being (F+S+HS) like The Almighty is the integral Person of the “Only True God” who raised Him from the dead.

Thoughts are the identity of the existence. I think therefore I am. God's thoughts are eternal in the virtue of His eternal beingness. Therefore, the Word is eternal too, "the same was in the beginning with God (John 1:2)."

Lord-Have-Mercy. :0) God’s thoughts are INFINITE and anything ‘eternal’ (like Heaven) is a mere image or likeness that is very much ‘temporal’ with a beginning and an end. You think because God created you in His image as a ‘god’ (Ps. 82:6, Jn 10:34) in His Infinite Realm. Your ‘eternal’ incarnation IN Christ ‘and’ your earthly incarnation on this earth are both ‘temporal’ having a beginning and an end like the Heaven (Gen. 1:1) transformed into a New Heaven (Rev. 21:1+) to begin all the ages to come right along with the Earth and the New Earth of the same verses. The “Word” of John 1:2 is a temporary personification and incarnation of The Word that is One with God in His Infinite Realm, but we know “Him” (The Word) as the “Son of God” (John 1:34) who God sent into this universe to save sinners. John 3:16. The reason that “God was IN Christ” (2Cor. 5:19) is because ‘both’ God AND The Word are ‘personified’ in this Adamic Realm (heavens, heaven and earth) through their ‘three witness’ mystery sets (GTC, GWI, GWW ‘and’ F+S+HS).

Similar consideration could be applied to the 3rd person of the Holy Spirit, where the Holy Spirit is regarded as the personification of God's powers/forces.

No sir. The Holy Spirit is the ‘water witness’ Helper testifying for “The Word” we know as the “Son of God” personified by our Lord Jesus Christ. The powers of the Holy Spirit are nurturing and mothering in comparison to those of “The Father” that include the calling down of the ‘fire of the Lord’ (Gen. 19:24, 1Kings 8:24+38, etc.) from heaven.

Would the above application of the term 'personification' be in harmony with the classical trinitarian doctrines as taught by Church Fathers?

The classical Trinitarian doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church teach the correct ‘pattern,’ but have the wrong Bible Principals (F+S+HS) plugged into the “Only True God” (GTC, GWI, GWW = Fig 1 = top again) equation; which is common for any Satanic ('doctrines of demons' = 1Timothy 4:1-3) counterfeit. That is what people get for replacing the three witnesses for “The Almighty” with those personifying “The Word” (F+S+HS) we know as the “Son of the Living God.” Matt. 16:15-17.

In Christ Jesus (F+S+HS) the Son of God,

Terral

 

[BrendanMark]

Dear Kalkas,

I was reading this last night, and couldn't help but think of ideas of personification and Trinity. Perhaps this will help - I hope it doesn't confuse further.

The monarchy of the Father within the Trinity is thus the sort of causality that produces equality and shared being, rather than inequality; and the equality of the three persons is the sort of equality that derives from and involves a cause, source, and first principle, not the sort that exists apart from any first principle. In the Trinity, then, dependence and equality are mutually involved in each other, however much the idea may run counter to certain ancient or modern sensibilities.
Although some have maintained that the orthodox doctrine of God excludes all causal relations and any sense of superiority within the Trinity—by assuming either that he divine unity is chiefly characterized by divine simplicity and therefore admits of no further qualifications, or that the Trinity contains a purely reciprocal perichoresis that admits of no hierarchies whatsoever—Gregory emphasizes that the Son and the Spirit are not without source (άναρχος, 25.16), and that it dishonors them to imagine that they exist apart from being caused by the Father (23.7). Hence the first characteristic with which he defines the Son and the Spirit (25.15) is the fact that they derive from the Father: “one begotten Lord, the Son” and “one Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father”—again, echoing traditional creedal forms.
Beeley, Christopher A. – Gregory of Nazianzus on the Trinity and the Knowledge of God [Oxford Studies in Historical Theology, 2008, p.210-211]

Like some modern interpreters, the Eunomians are thus objecting to the idea that divine relations are both causally ordered and equal at the same time. Gregory’s response is therefore to argue not for the unity or consubstantiality of three things in general—as if unity-in-diversity were the problem—but in defense of the intrinsic connection between causality and ontological equality in God.
For Gregory, the unity of the Trinity is not an abstract logical principle or a prior fact of the divine life, but it always refers to—and is—the Father’s divine generation of the Son and the Spirit.
Beeley, Christopher A. – Gregory of Nazianzus on the Trinity and the Knowledge of God [Oxford Studies in Historical Theology, 2008, p.211]

Even more widespread is the related confusion over whether, according to the fathers, personhood or divine essence per se holds priority in the Trinity, and consequently in Christian ontology, cosmology, and anthropology. . . . John Meyendorff argues that Gregory is a paradigmatic example of the Greek view of the priority of the Father, whereby the hypostasis of the Father, not the divine nature, is “the origin of hypostatic ‘subsistence.’”1 By artificially separating the categories of hypostasis and nature from one another, Meyendorff grossly misrepresents Gregory’s doctrine. For Gregory, the first principle of the Trinity is neither “personhood” nor the divine essence per se, but God the Father, who, as unbegotten Divinity, is both hypostasis and divine essence.
Consequently, Gregory would also reject any notion of Trinitarian perichoresis that conceives of the divine life as being purely reciprocal and not eternally based in the monarchy of the Father—as if, once the Father establishes the consubstantial Trinity, the hierarchical structure of the divine generations gives way to a purely reciprocal exchange of Divinity.
Beeley, Christopher A. – Gregory of Nazianzus on the Trinity and the Knowledge of God [Oxford Studies in Historical Theology, 2008, p.212-213]
1 Meyendorff, Byzantine Theology, p. 183

Unfortunately, talk of causation often leads to confusing eternity with temporality, something St Gregory was at pains to eliminate by placing the begetting and procession in eternity. Eternity is not mere temporal perpetuity, but is outside time altogether. But few get that today.


Eternity is quite distinct from perpetuity, from mere endless continuance in time. Perpetuity is only the attainment of an endless series of moments, each lost as soon as it is attained. Eternity is the actual and timeless fruition of illimitable life. Time, even endless time, is only an image, almost a parody, of that plenitude; a hopeless attempt to compensate for the transitoriness of its ‘presents’ by infinitely multiplying them. That is why Shakespeare’s Lucrece calls it ‘thou ceaseless lackey to eternity’ (Rape, 967). And God is eternal, not perpetual. Strictly speaking, He never foresees; He simply sees. Your ‘future’ is only an area, and only for us a special area, of His infinite Now. He sees (not remembers) your yesterday’s acts because yesterday is still ‘there’ for Him; he sees (not foresees) your tomorrow’s acts because He is already in tomorrow. As a human spectator, by watching my present act, does not at all infringe its freedom, so I am none the less free to act as I choose in the future because God, in the future (His present) watches me acting.
Lewis, C.S. – The Discarded Image [Cambridge 1964 p89]

 

[&Abel]

Hello,

I have a question about the use of the term 'personification' and its application to the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

In literature the term 'personification' is used as a figure of speech in which human characteristics are attributed to an abstract quality, animal, or inanimate object.

However, can the term 'personification' be used to refer to some form of embodiment of either a thing/process or an abstract concept as a person, where such embodiment is not understood in a metaphorical manner, but rather in a metaphysical sense? For instance, goddess Venus is goddess of love because she is a personification of love.

If the second usage is not improper, can the Son, the 2nd person of Godhead be regarded as the personification of God's thoughts/words?

According to the Bible, God's thoughts/words have a tremendous creative vitality, i.e. God has a power to create the worlds by His words (Gen 1). If so, God's thoughts/words are filled with tremendous and vital Life such that they can even sustain themselves independently, to form their own Personhood known as the Word (John 1:1). Can this be thought of as a personification? By such idea of personification, the Word is eternal because God's words/thoughts are eternal. The Word is also integral (unseperated) Person of God's Being.

Thoughts are the identity of the existence. I think therefore I am. God's thoughts are eternal in the virtue of His eternal beingness. Therefore, the Word is eternal too, "the same was in the beginning with God (John 1:2)."

Similar consideration could be applied to the 3rd person of the Holy Spirit, where the Holy Spirit is regarded as the personification of God's powers/forces.

Would the above application of the term 'personification' be in harmony with the classical trinitarian doctrines as taught by Church Fathers?

Best regards,
Aleksandar

your on the right track

9However, you are not (R)in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God (S)dwells in you But (T)if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10(U)If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of Him who (V)raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, (W)He who raised (X)Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [a]through His Spirit who dwells in you.



basically the holy spirit is the image of the father(perfection, love, power etc etc etc)


jesus IS that image manifested in the flesh



13and are not like Moses, (V)who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
14But their minds were (W)hardened; for until this very day at the (X)reading of (Y)the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
16(Z)but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where (AA)the Spirit of the Lord is, (AB)there is liberty.
18But we all, with unveiled face, (AC)beholding as in a mirror the (AD)glory of the Lord, are being (AE)transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from (AF)the Lord, the Spirit.





63"(CW)It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; (CX)the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Zechariah 7:12
"They made their hearts like flint so that they could not hear the law and the words which the LORD of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets; therefore great wrath came from the LORD of hosts.

Genesis 15:1
[ Abram Promised a Son ] After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying," Do not fear, Abram,I am a shield to you;Your reward shall be very great."

2 Samuel 23:2
" The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me,And His word was on my tongue.